Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hey, welcome back to Change the Odds, the podcast where marriage and family were never meant to be a game of chance. Hey, don't forget, Change the Odds is part of the Thrive Podcast network. So get on the Thrive Podcast Network website. You got Mark Clark, we got the new Bible Study. It's out. Leslie and Morgan, am I doing this right? Johnny Shroyer, you're with business leaders. Lot of great content, lot of different things that you can listen to, and a lot of second best podcasts compared.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:22]:
To what we have going on here.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:23]:
All right, Blaine and Adrienne, back with us. And Blaine and Adrienne, I brought a friend.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:28]:
Yes, you did.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:29]:
I'm very excited.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:30]:
What is this? Clinical psych. Dr. Barbara Wilson. She has testified in front of the UN. Wow. And now she's here with us.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:37]:
Wow.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:38]:
How about that?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:39]:
Unbelievable.
Barbara Wilson [00:00:39]:
I feel like I'm moving up.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:41]:
This is the pinnacle.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:43]:
Finally, an expert on the show.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:44]:
Yeah, we've been waiting.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:46]:
I just play one on the Internet, not in real life. No. So seriously, Barbara and I do a good number of things together. I've done this podcast, obviously, and whenever I'm on stage with Barbara, it really is this idea of I have somebody who can actually tell scientific truth.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:02]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:02]:
As opposed to just what I'm making up and doing.
Barbara Wilson [00:01:05]:
Yeah, you're pretty good. I'm impressed.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:07]:
Thank you.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:08]:
I'm gonna put that on the next. My back. The back.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:10]:
The next book.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:11]:
The back of it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:12]:
Pretty good.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:13]:
Pretty good.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:14]:
Yeah, that's exactly right. All right, so here we are. So last night we wrapped up our Becoming Friends, Partners and Lovers series. Been a great, fun time. We ended up with over 650 people registered. Awesome. For this class.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:26]:
Taking along the way.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:27]:
And so now they're. Now they're on their own in what's going on. But last night we talked about intimacy and sex. And so I began. And what we're gonna cover in this episode is about intimacy outside of the bedroom. So not just. I think if we're not very careful, we can get so caught up on the lovers part of Friends, Partners and Lovers and just think it's the sexual act. And that is.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:51]:
That is so much broader than just that topic. Barbara, whenever you're dealing with clients and lecturing and doing all of this, what do you see as the relationship between intimacy outside the bedroom and how that impacts what goes on inside the bedroom?
Barbara Wilson [00:02:04]:
Well, I think it's foundational, you know, in terms of developing that friendship first. This is a thing I'm seeing more culturally, but a lot of people that come into my office is, you know, They've had sex too soon, even in their relationship outside of marriage, and then that stalls that friendship, which then, you know, they get married, and all of a sudden, the sexual intimacy might not be resolving some of the conflicts, but they don't have the foundation of the friendship to be able to talk about some of those tough issues.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:34]:
Oh, that's very interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:35]:
I would say the stalled friendship then puts too much pressure on the partnership, especially early on. Whenever you're first getting married, you're learning how to truly be partners in life, and that's where the friendship is such a benefit, because it helps you kind of navigate maybe some of the tensions or disagreements or differences. But when the friendship gets stalled now, the partnership brings a great deal of weight, and then that can struggle in intimacy. And do you see how I tied all three of those things together?
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:59]:
Yes, I did. Kevin, you are an expert.
Barbara Wilson [00:03:02]:
But not only that, the sexual intimacy becomes pressured to be the only thing that creates that kind of intimacy. And so then there's a lot of pressure on one partner or the other to meet that need constantly for intimacy to feel close. And without the friendship, it just becomes a false sense of intimacy.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:21]:
Oh, yeah. So, Blaine and Adrienne, for y'all, what's your favorite way to connect? I mean, outside of sexual intimacy, what makes you feel most connected and most bonded? What calms you the most?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:35]:
I would say a shared experience and usually involving laughter. So if we can have fun together, we're, like, connected, right?
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:44]:
Yeah. I would find that even, like doing the podcast. We're doing it together. We get to go home. We talk about it. We had this share common event.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:51]:
Yeah. And learning. Learning together when we can, and then we're just happier.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:56]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:56]:
Yeah. That's an interesting. People often forget about that. We talk about it, actually. But this idea of mental intimacy, I love that with Jenny, this. You know, she's working on her business. Let's brainstorm together, figure out, is there a way I can help you with what's going on? You know, I'll get done speaking, and she'll only if ask, because that's an intimate time afterwards. Only if ask, she'll say, hey, what do you think about, you know, adding this? Or.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:21]:
Man, this was a really good point. And that is a closeness that exists as well. Here's my favorite part of last night, is at the very end of my talk, I said, I've been talking for 25 minutes to all these couples. They're spread all throughout the worship center. I've been talking for 25 minutes. How many times during that time have you touched your spouse, and it was so fascinating. The feel in the room immediately changed as a good number of couples were already holding hands or whatever. And then a good other couple, as.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:50]:
You could see, like, they started looking.
Barbara Wilson [00:04:52]:
Around, little awkward little smiles, like, oops.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:55]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:56]:
But I think just that basic concept of just a light touch, just a simple connection. We've talked about this before, but I went through a series, a time of high anxiety. And one thing my counselor told me was, look, whenever you're in that situation, have a signal with Jenny that way, because it happens in social situations. That way she can just put her hand on your leg or hold your hand. And I'm like, what's the point of that gonna be? You know? And the next thing, you know, the next time we're out, we're at dinner, I kind of feel it a little bit. I kind of give. And Jenny just kind of underneath the table, right on my knee, puts her hand, and I just.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:37]:
Calm.
Barbara Wilson [00:05:37]:
Yeah. You know what that is? That's some oxytocin being released.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:40]:
What's going on there?
Barbara Wilson [00:05:41]:
Well, because when we release oxytocin, it actually. It does help calm, especially if you're feeling anxious. It's actually released even during times of trauma to help people have, you know, be able. It's just God's way of helping us be able to cop with difficult situations. But in that moment, even just that touch, you know, you're releasing. You're both releasing oxytocin, and that makes you feel connected and safe. Safer.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:06]:
What are some other ways. I mean, whenever you're. What are some ways you would encourage Blaine and Adrienne, me and Jenny, to develop intimacy outside of the bedroom?
Barbara Wilson [00:06:17]:
I think you've already mentioned some of those things. Shared experiences, finding those things that, you know, you can enjoy together and do together. Laughing a lot. You know, we joke because my husband tells the same jokes that he's been telling for 41 years. And I still laugh at them. I still think they're funny. And my kids think it's ridiculous. Mom, how can you laugh at the same joke? I'm like, it's still so funny.
Barbara Wilson [00:06:38]:
But, you know, and just having those little shared. Like we have a special, you know, way we hold hands. It's just ours, you know, just kind of some of those special things. We now we're able to travel a little bit together, but we find, I mean, just even the mundane things, like we like to go shopping at Costco together. Oh, yeah, that's a date night for us.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:59]:
We love Costco.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:59]:
And do you all go together?
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:01]:
Oh, yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:01]:
It's just a highlight.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:02]:
So Jenny and I. Jenny doesn't allow me.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:04]:
Oh, why?
Barbara Wilson [00:07:06]:
Well, I do have to hold my husband back.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:09]:
You're gonna barbecue more?
Kevin Thompson [00:07:11]:
Yeah. No, Jenny, I have not gone to Walmart with Jenny because, I mean, we don't do Costco because I'm in Arkansas, so I've not gone to Walmart or Sam's with Jenny in 23 years.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:22]:
Sad for you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:24]:
Because you would buy too much.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:26]:
No, because I was there and I'm doing things I shouldn't be doing. And it frustrates her because whenever she doesn't want to be there. And so we got a task.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:36]:
Get it done.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:37]:
Take care of the task.
Barbara Wilson [00:07:38]:
Oh, you're a task.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:38]:
No, no.
Barbara Wilson [00:07:39]:
We wander and bond this.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:41]:
Yeah, look at the sample.
Barbara Wilson [00:07:41]:
That would be fun. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:42]:
I get in trouble putting things in the basket. And so, I mean, it's another episode that we gotta work through when Jenny comes on. But so literally, I remember standing in Walmart and like, the third time she had reprimanded me, the thought crossed my mind. I'm in Walmart hell, in more pain than I could tell. She's telling me where to stand. I no longer feel like a man. And I wrote a poem. I used it the next Sunday, and I haven't been to Walmart with Jenny since.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:11]:
Oh, geez.
Barbara Wilson [00:08:13]:
Well, that would be one of those negative shapes that's exactly right for y'all.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:17]:
For y'all. Maybe Costco would be the.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:19]:
I think it is.
Barbara Wilson [00:08:20]:
I don't know. They always have new stuffs. Kevin.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:23]:
I've never been in one.
Barbara Wilson [00:08:24]:
Not to promote Costco or anything.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:26]:
I've never been in a Costco.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:28]:
That's what.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:29]:
No, you lie.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:30]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:30]:
Walmart and Sam's. That's it. It'd be cheap.
Barbara Wilson [00:08:33]:
I don't know. I don't hear people talking about Sam's, honestly, but.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:36]:
Or Walmart.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:37]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:38]:
Wow.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:38]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:38]:
Y'all are injuring me here.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:40]:
Anyway, the thing that stood out to me last.
Barbara Wilson [00:08:44]:
I digress.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:45]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:45]:
Was the. The vulnerability piece when you were a little bit more vulnerable and you create this vulnerability because I think when we got married, I assumed, okay, now we're married, therefore, we do this and we do that all the time, like. But yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:09:00]:
At least everything together.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:01]:
Yeah. Barbara said four to five times a week, right?
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:05]:
Canadian. That's Canadian.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:07]:
Two to three American is four to five. Canadian.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:10]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:10]:
20% or whatever.
Barbara Wilson [00:09:12]:
Monetary upgrade.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:13]:
But just.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:13]:
Just that. And you made a comment, too. Is like you. You expose Your pride like it. That's a crime. But to a wife and to a spouse, that's intimacy that's special. Like, there's something very, very vulnerable about that that really stuck out to me.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:31]:
Yeah. So we talked about. So friendship built on trust, partnership built on respect. Now intimacy built on vulnerability. And we talked about vulnerability. Kind of two different ways to look at it. One, it's to expose to one what you keep concealed to most obviously, physically. We think about that with clothing, but there's a whole mental em of all that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:48]:
And then secondly, the idea of vulnerability.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:50]:
Is choosing a pathway that does not come naturally to us. And so we have these defense mechanisms that are built in, and many times they're very justified and right. And that's exactly how we should act with others. But if I use that defense mechanism with Jenny, I'm actually holding back my heart from her, and that becomes a dangerous thing. So that's going to lead us into our conversation. So we're going to enter into the worship center beside Granite Bay. 500, 600 of our closest friends, and we're gonna talk about intimacy outside the bedroom.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:19]:
Here's the talk. Hey. Hey. We're gonna talk about intimacy and sex. And I want us to notice that we're gonna cover those as not necessarily the exact same words. So if you have your guidebooks, we're gonna be. I'm gonna look at session 11 here, starting on page 95. So if you'll turn to page 95.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:38]:
Whenever Dr. Randy Nordell and I put this guidebook together, we took my book friends, partners, and lovers, and we put this guidebook together. So it primarily new material, just following the same outline. We had a great debate of. Okay, I knew that we were going to do separate sessions on the idea of sex and then the idea of intimacy, because while they are clearly connected, those are not necessarily always the exact same things. You can actually have intimacy without having sex. Sadly, you can have sex without it being intimate. And yet we want to merge the two together the best we possibly can.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:12]:
But one debate that we had is, if a group is going through this marriage mentoring small groups, which should come first? Should we put intimacy first and then talk about sex, or should we put sex first and talk about intimacy? And so the reason that we did it in the way that we did in that session 10 is on sex and session 11 is on intimacy. Because I knew that if we covered intimacy first, then a lot of the discussions would just go towards sexual. Whereas if we covered sex first, then it would allow the next Session to actually talk about this idea of intimacy. And so tonight during this discussion, we're actually going to switch kind of the orders of the chapters of the session. So I'm going to talk over this time on this idea of intimacy. As a matter of fact, if I had one goal for this group tonight, it ultimately would be that as you leave here tonight and in the weeks to follow, if I could get you to increase the amount of intimacy in your marriage outside of the bedroom, I think that would be more productive than just increasing your intimacy inside the bedroom. I think if we could find a way to increase our sense of closeness, of connection, of being known and seen and understood and valued, our physical touch, of leveraging our bodies for the well being of each other, I think that would have such a payoff in the bedroom that that is actually my higher goal. So why some of you might have come in here tonight thinking to yourself, man, I just hope we leave here and we have sex more often.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:51]:
While for some of you that's a.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:53]:
Fair goal, that is not my goal. My goal is can we increase your level of intimacy within your relationship? And then I think there would have a ripple effect. Basically, I think the issue of frequency would take care of itself if we could create true intimacy within your relationship. So notice that this is going to be built now on the idea of vulnerability. So let's go back to the big picture. We're becoming friends, partners and lovers. So it's this idea of friend, partner and lover, almost like a three legged stool. Not one is more important than the other or one is less important.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:27]:
It is not even the idea of friendship is most important. Partnership is second. Intimacy is third. It is. These are equal concepts. Where any area is weak within your relationship, it can have a ripple effect into the others. And so friendship, don't forget, that's somebody who's always by my side. Now, built on the issue of trust, where I can lay my heart out on the table.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:47]:
You can lay your heart out on the table. And I know you're going to treat me right. You know I'm going to treat you right. Remember, Jenny is for me. She loves me and she's for me. I'm for her and I love her. So friendship is built on trust, partnership. Now is this idea that we're going back to back.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:01]:
I have skills and abilities, Jenny has skills and abilities. We have responsibilities to take care of. Ultimately, partnership is about making each other's dreams come true. But to get to that level, we have to be able to pay the bills and figure out how we're raising the kids and make sure the mortgage payment is taken care of. And that now is built on this idea of respect. You bring weight and value and substance to this relationship. You have an insight and understanding that I don't have. And I'm going to lean on you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:29]:
You're going to lean on me. So friendship is based on trust. A partnership is based on respect. Now, this idea of intimacy Is based on the concept of vulnerability. And whenever I look at vulnerability, I think about two different definitions that I kind of personally have for vulnerability. One is this vulnerability, in part, is revealing to one what is concealed to most. So in the same ways that physically, I will reveal to Jenny aspects of my body that would get me arrested if I revealed to you There are also emotional aspects of my life that I now that she deserves, and I am now obligated to not hold back from her. That for me to conceal aspects of my emotional life, My mental life, my spiritual life, for me to conceal aspects from her of that aspect of my life Is now really to hold back and to not fulfill the vow I made.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:33]:
Whenever I say I do, what I told her is, I'm gonna give the totality of who I am now to you. And vulnerability is now what makes that pathway possible, Where I'm gonna reveal to her things I would not reveal to you. It doesn't mean I'm being hypocritical. It just means that people do deserve different levels of relationship and interaction with us. Well, our spouse ultimately gets the fullness of. Of who we are. So in one sense, vulnerability and what I love about that definition, it helps me begin to ask, what am I revealing to Jenny that I'm not revealing to others? And if there's nothing there, I have to begin to question myself. Am I lacking vulnerability with her? And if so, why? And another way to look at vulnerability is this.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:27]:
That vulnerability is choosing a pathway that does not come naturally to me. So some of that language, if you're new to tonight, that idea of pathway may not make sense, but literally, I see it like a road, a sidewalk, you could say a trail in the midst of the woods. That we have some natural actions that just come natural to us. This is how we operate. This is how we talk. This is how we respond. This is how we feel. This is how we think.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:56]:
And they come very natural to us. Well, sin has impacted us in such a way that not all of the pathways that we naturally choose Are the best way to go about life. And there are times in which we have to recognize that we are using protective measures. We are protecting our heart based on past pains. And those protective measures, many times that come from very good places. We have past hurts and relationships where vulnerability actually created pain within us. We learned lessons, all right, we can't be vulnerable in that way. But the danger is this, that whenever I choose a pathway of protection of my own heart based on past pain that somebody else has caused within me, whenever I choose that pathway with Jenny, I am now actually holding her responsible for pain she didn't actually implement in my life.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:44]:
And so what vulnerability is in one part is me recognizing, hey, here's how you normally respond. Jenny doesn't need you to respond that way. So I am very naturally, much more stoic in response, far less emotion than some of my co workers that you see on occasion, far less emotion. And there's a great deal of goodness about that, that I'm good in times of uncertainty, of danger, I can kind of be a rock. But here's the thing. If that is what Jenny always gets from me, that lack of emotion, that, all right, he'll figure it out. He'll have the answer. He'll get it right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:24]:
He'll do the right thing. If she never gets the vulnerability of uncertainty, of a confession, I'm afraid here, I don't know what to do. I don't know what the right answer is. Things that I don't necessarily show y'all. If I never show that to Jenny, I'm not being vulnerable with her. And so I have to recognize, all right, what is my natural instinct here? Well, vulnerability is having the courage to recognize it and say, well, that's an appropriate response in a lot of places. That's actually not the appropriate response with Jenny. Jenny at times needs to see the uncertain Kevin, the insecure Kevin, the doubting Kevin, the hurting Kevin.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:09]:
Well, as your pastor, there's a right place for me to reveal aspects of that to you, no doubt. But if I walk into your hospital room and you're in pain and sorrow and you're uncertain about the diagnosis that's about to come, you don't want me to walk in, in that moment and say, hey, man, I'm really hurting right now.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:29]:
Could you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:29]:
Could you help me? That's not my role. I have a job in that moment to pastor you. It's not always my job to pastor Jenny. I'm supposed to be a pastor to her, no doubt. But I have to choose a different pathway with her. Here's a simple question. I'll go Gender specific to guys, first and foremost, men. How often do you look at your wife and say, will you hold me? Not.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:03]:
Not will you have sex with me? The pause there of me trying to figure out how to say that exactly was hilarious. So not a sexual concept, but just a physical need of connection. It's one of the most intimate, vulnerable things that you can actually do with your wife. To ask her to provide that for you, putting her now in a position of strength and you in a position of vulnerability. If you never walk that pathway, then there are aspects of intimacy now that are going to be missing. Well, that doesn't come naturally to me, but it's something I have to learn and now something I have to choose. Well, with this lack of vulnerability now, there's primarily two reasons that we may not that we might lack vulnerability or lack intimacy in general. There's two basic reasons that we have.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:05]:
One is apathy, and the other one is an absence of trust or respect. So we're about to walk through different avenues of intimacy outside of just sex. Ways that we can be intimate with one another apart from just the sexual act. Where those things are lacking, they lack either because of apathy, we just drifted into a habit and a pattern in which we're not having this intimate connection. And so what we need to do is to bring back with intention an intentionality now of including these aspects in our relationship. And by being purposeful in those activities, it will add intimacy to our relationship, and that will be a positive thing. The example I gave, I think early.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:50]:
On, I told you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:51]:
The reason I think most couples don't hold hands is specifically this. They start dating and they're holding hands. They get married and they're holding hands. Everything is going great. Then they have that first kid, and they go from holding hands to holding a baby carrier. And then the little kid grows up, and eventually the kid's now walking, and they go from holding each other's hands to now the family of three holding hands with a kid kind of in the middle, and everything's great. And that's exactly the way it should be. And it's a beautiful thing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:19]:
It's a wonderful thing. And however many kids come along, that's what's going on. Well, eventually the kid no longer wants to hold the parent's hand because they want to have their own kind of autonomy. And they're embarrassed by us that now they let go of our hands. And we never intentionally hold each other's hands again. And it's no ill will, it's no Sign of a broken relationship. It's just over time, life has changed and we haven't recognized the changing of the seasons. And nobody goes intentionally back to hold each other's hands.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:52]:
Well, that is apathy that now creates an absence of physical touch that has a negative consequence on our lives. And when apathy is present, it's just a matter of attention. It's just a matter of, oh, yeah, I can hold her hand, let me reach back out. And so in some ways, if intimacy of vulnerability isn't an aspect of your relationship, it's very possible that it's just apathy and intention now can change things. But it's also possible that the reason vulnerability or intimacy is not present in your relationship is not now a lack of apathy. It's actually an absence of trust and or respect. You see, here's the thing. You should not be vulnerable with somebody you don't trust.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:40]:
With somebody you don't respect.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:42]:
There's too much danger. There's too much danger for me to put my heart out on the line if I don't know how Jenny's going to treat it, if I don't know how she's going to respond, or if I'm afraid that in some way now she's going to abuse it or make fun of me or mock me or use it to her own advantage. When that's the case, my guard very rightly has to go up and I can't be vulnerable with her because I don't trust or respect her. There are some relationships in this room where you can see there is a lack of vulnerability, a lack of intimacy, and rightly so, because trust and or respect have been eroded, have not been rebuilt. And the last thing you need to do at this moment is to be vulnerable with somebody you don't trust or respect. Now, if that's you, the question then becomes, how do we rebuild the trust and respect? And literally, you can put vulnerability on the side for a little bit and just say, that's an issue we will get to eventually. But these other two are so integral, we have to go after them first. And throughout the guidebook, we've kind of looked at some of this, of this idea of here's how you rebuild trust and here's how you rebuild trust, respect.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:50]:
But you have to recognize if your intimacy isn't where it needs to be, if vulnerability isn't where you want it to be, you have to diagnose is it apathy or absence? Absence of trust and respect. There's one pathway to improve that Just the presence of apathy now just means intention. We need to change that. And so I want you to be very discerning this whole session, and the next session should come with a little bit of a surgeon General's warning. We're going to give proverbial truth. You have to be very discerning to your situation and scenario. Because I can very quickly say for a majority of couples who are hearing me right now, whether they're watching online on the podcast, or listening within the room, for a majority of couples in the room right now, one of the best things you can do with your spouse is to increase the amount of physical touch you have with your spouse outside of the bedroom. However, if you don't have trust and respect, I would not increase that yet.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:51]:
I wouldn't hold his hand or hold her hand. If there was a recent erosion or explosion that's now caused an absence of trust and respect doesn't mean you're never gonna hold it again. It just means right now, we're not ready yet. So I want you to be very discerning. As we get into this next section there on page 96, I want us just to kind of quickly walk through what are some aspects or some elements of intimacy, apart from the act of sex, that we want to increase in our lives. So you can see, first we have this idea of emotional intimacy. So what would it look like now to truly begin to share your thoughts with each other, to recognize the emotion that's in the other person, and to support without a sense of judgment, really. I see this now in some ways of we're trying to woo out of our spouse the fullness of who they are.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:51]:
And whereas in other cultures and other settings, in other relationships, they might have to stuff elements and aspects of who they are, I want to give Jenny a safe space to where now she can kind of come out of her shell and begin to say, here's what I'm feeling, here's what I'm thinking, here's what I'm struggling with, and to not feel any sense that I'm going to hold her accountable to that, or I'm going to judge her, or I'm going to mock her or to make fun of her. But instead, I'm going to create a safe space with curiosity to try to bring that out of her, the fullness of that emotion that is actually there. What would that look like, this idea of giving emotional support to each other, the concept of grief? Do you allow your spouse to feel the sorrows of life, to grieve losses and hurts without so quickly trying to cheer them up.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:49]:
You know, one thing they taught us.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:50]:
In seminary is always have Kleenex in your office. And when somebody is there with you and they start to cry, you do not hand them the Kleenex. You let them reach on their own. Because to hand them the Kleenex could imply, I want you to stop crying. But if the Kleenex is available, they can get it themselves. But you're very comfortable in the midst of their tears. We have to be very careful as spouses. We care so much for each other that when our spouse begins to talk about a grief, especially for men, I'm sure women as well, I can feel like there's such a pressure, I gotta solve this, I gotta fix this for her.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:38]:
When in reality, she just needs to be seen and valued and heard and understood. And so am I drawing that emotion out of her in a healthy way or do I have a tendency of squashing it? I gotta be careful about that. There is now a sense of physical intimacy apart from just the act of sex. So this idea of hugging, of kissing, of holding hands, that cuddling that Gottman is going to say, a survey was done that 94% of couples, 94% of couples who regularly cuddle report that they are not just happy in the relationship, they are extremely happy to such an extent that Gottman would say the greatest indicator of a couple's physical intimacy is actually how often they cuddle outside the act of sex. Because what happens, well, generally speaking, you're not going to cuddle with somebody you don't feel comfortable with. And so if you begin to cuddle with each other, that physical connection that is now there, not only can it lead to more acts of intimacy, no question, it begins to bond the two of you together to such an extent. We've talked about this before. Gottman talks about the power now of a kiss that extends beyond just a little peck on the cheek.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:58]:
The power of an embrace, of a hug that goes beyond just a quick hug goodbye, but turns into a 30 second or a 60 second hug where literally your heartbeats begin to calm together and actually begin to align to create this sense of connection that is there. The idea of massage. I would say for most couples, one of the most overlooked aspects of what marriage can bring to you is outside of just the act of sex, the ability to leverage each other's body for our own well being. What Jenny's hand just on my knee or on my shoulder does for me just begins to calm me just that connection, as we fall into bed at night, not having no plans to have sex whatsoever, but just to embrace and know that we are in this game together and to feel that physical connection, what happens is your blood pressure begins to lower. There is this sense of peace. And Barbara's gonna be able to tell you the exact chemicals that are released that actually makes that happen for you in some way. How can we leverage that? Now, there is a concept now of mental intimacy. This idea of we're gonna engage our brains in what's going on and brainstorm ideas, and I'm gonna listen to you, and you're gon listen to me, and I'm going to have some ideas on your work and you're going to have some ideas on mine.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:25]:
The dreams that we have, we're going to solve problems together. We're going to be in this together. And reflecting back on our talk from Money a couple weeks ago, one thing I wish I would have said then, so I'll say it now, is I think one thing that healthy couples do with money is money becomes fun for them. It becomes fun. And it's not this idea of, oh, we have all this money, that's what makes it fun. It is instead this idea of we create a system to where we're on the same team. And even as we're struggling and trying to figure out this together, we literally make it fun. And trying to play this game to try to figure out how do we want to create the life that we actually want, that's a mental exercise.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:02]:
There is this idea of spiritual intimacy. It's no accident that in friends, partners and lovers in this book as well, whenever I talk about the element of faith, I put it not in friendship, not in partnership. I actually put it in the element, in the realm of lovers, that there is this amount of spiritual intimacy. When Jenny opens up her soul to me and I open up my soul to her, we now feel a connection that's unlike any other. And then in the guidebook, I talk about an experiential intimacy that we are going through life together. Here's what I think can be so powerful.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:40]:
If you and I could begin to.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:43]:
Take as seriously this idea of intimacy outside the bedroom. I think it would make the experience inside the bedroom so much easier. Now let me ask you just one closing thought with no sense of judgment from me whatsoever. I've been talking for 25 minutes. How many times during this talk have you and your spouse touched? Now think about this. You had 25 minutes and literally you could have just communicated, I love you. Hey, we're in this together. They're literally.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:23]:
When I'm walking with Ella and I.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:25]:
Hold Ella's hand, back when Silas was young enough, he would hold my hand.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:28]:
I would do the same thing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:28]:
As I'm walking with Ella, I told the kids long ago, hey, whenever I pump your hand, that's me saying, I love you. So even as Ella's getting irritated and I'm talking to you and not her, I'll pump her hand. I love you. I do the same with Jenny. That will just grab each other's hands just as a reminder, hey, I'm here. I love you. If you could learn to increase that, I think it would make a radical difference in your life.