Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hey. Welcome back to Change the Odds, the podcast where marriage and family were never meant to be. A game of chance. Blaine and Adrienne.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:04]:
Hello.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:05]:
Here we are.
Barbara Wilson [00:00:05]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:06]:
Are we good? Are we good this morning?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:07]:
Everything good?
Barbara Wilson [00:00:08]:
We got, the kids are fighting. You know, we're usually good for one or two fights at the beginning of the day. Just small. But we got through it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:16]:
We've been on the same team this morning.
Barbara Wilson [00:00:17]:
Today it was us against the kids.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:19]:
There you go. I love it. I love it.
Barbara Wilson [00:00:21]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:21]:
Well, I didn't know what kind of day it was like, so I brought my friend, Dr. Barbara Wilson, clinical psychologist. So we got an expert here for us finally.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:31]:
And if you need any help, you know, I'm happy to.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:34]:
Thank you.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:35]:
Referee Zell over the copay, and she can take care of that. So here's what I want to talk about today. I want to talk about this idea of how do we talk about sex? Because as I look at and deal with couples and speak across the country and do what I do, I would say for the average couple, so outside of active addiction, abuse or adultery, let's push that to the side. If that's you get some help, you can work on it. But everybody else, I would say the biggest issue is an inability to have honest conversations about what do I like, what do I not like, what do I dislike, what's the frequency? And instead, what happens is if it is talked about, it is with frustration and anger when things aren't going well. So it's not like there is two days later after a. A great interaction, hey, let's deconstruct how well that went. That never happens.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:33]:
But if sex is supposed to happen tonight and it doesn't happen tonight, then the fight's on and there's tension until it actually does take place. And I think for the average couple, if we could learn how to talk about sex, it would make a radical difference. Because then if you can't talk about sex between you and your spouse, you're gonna really struggle to talk about with your kids. And so your kids are gonna find out. They're going to learn either from you or from somebody else. So if you can't have this conversation with your kids, well, who are they having the conversations with and what is that gonna be like? So that's what I wanna talk about today.
Barbara Wilson [00:02:09]:
Awesome.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:10]:
Don't forget, Change the Odds is part of the Thrive Podcast Network. And so you can go to the Thrive Podcast Network website, find all the good conversations that are going on. The Bible study with Curt Harlow, Dina Davidson, Mark Clark podcast. You can listen to Morgan and Leslie. Am I doing this right? Wesley Towne on mental health. Jonny Schroyer with business leaders. All sorts of great content across the board. Great.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:34]:
I can't figure out what is my second favorite podcast among that list, but we know everybody's favorite is Change the Odds. So, Barbara, let's just talk with just some general picture here of. Is my premise correct that many couples struggle to talk about sex? And if so, what are some of the roadblocks that are hindering that intimate conversation?
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:57]:
Whoa. Yeah, there's a lot. Probably, first of all, just family of origin. Was that something that you were able to talk about? Was there comfort in that?
Kevin Thompson [00:03:05]:
Blaine, Adrienne, in y' all's family, how was sex talked about growing up?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:10]:
I don't remember talking about it. I don't know if they did. And I blocked it out. But from what I can remember, it wasn't talked about so much that I learned a lot of things from friends. And I have one embarrassing story. Can I share it? Oh, I'm getting sweaty.
Barbara Wilson [00:03:27]:
And.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:29]:
Well, when a lady gives oral sex to a man, I thought it was like blowing into a juice box.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:39]:
Oh.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:39]:
And it would. You would fill it up with air and it would squirt back out at you.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:44]:
Okay.
Barbara Wilson [00:03:45]:
You stumped them.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:46]:
Okay. This is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:47]:
I'm still trying to get that visual.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:49]:
This looks fascinating.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:51]:
Yeah, you can cut that.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:53]:
Okay. No, no, no. We might expand upon.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:57]:
And I said. I was like, oh, I would never do that because, like, I wouldn't want to anyways. And they were like, oh, that's not how it works. And I said this to my friends in high school, and they're like, that's not how this works. And I. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:12]:
I was wondering how long it took to figure out, this.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:14]:
Is not on our wedding night.
Barbara Wilson [00:04:15]:
I didn't know this. I didn't know that this was a learning experience of hers.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:19]:
Okay.
Barbara Wilson [00:04:20]:
For me, I was the youngest of four brothers, so a lot of this world was brought into the home from through girlfriends and relationships, and I was just kind of watching it all unfold. We would have talked about it a bit more, and it wouldn't have been so taboo to talk about it. But it was a very Christian religious upbringing. The expectations were, save yourselves until marriage or else. Or else. Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:49]:
Kind of fear driven.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:50]:
But any kind of tools or how to do that, how to. It's osmosis. You kind of. Yeah. Don't have sex, but nobody's talking about, like, even. That was my experience, too.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:03]:
A Bit of a shame culture.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:04]:
I didn't even know what intercourse I had to go like I had to go searching through books. Cause nobody, not even in school, we didn't have it in school or in our churches. My parents weren't talking about it. So literally went out into the world completely naive and unprepared, which I didn't want my kids to be. So we started talking about sex early.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:25]:
Our whole discussion was I was a kid in the 90s and so there were two main topics that were going on. One was, true love waits, so save yourself for marriage. And the other one was Jesus was gonna return by 1999 because of the turn of the millennium. And just in doing the math, I.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:41]:
Was like, you didn't have much time.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:43]:
Wait a second, shoot. I probably won't be married yet. And so it became this great prayer, right? Of Jesus.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:51]:
Hold on, hang on, hang on.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:52]:
I have a joke like that where I was like, I'll wait if you wait till I've waited.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:57]:
I would pray that too. God, just hang on till I get married.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:00]:
I just wanna experience it once.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:01]:
Handle that. Now you have kids that are of different ages. What's that like in Yalls home?
Barbara Wilson [00:06:06]:
Yeah, I mean, I think it's part of the questions that we have right now is what is appropriate, how do we do it? Our friends are discussing because now boy and girl friendships amongst family where we're really hanging out all the time. And oh, the kids go off and they're playing in the bedroom and oh, they happen to play family. What's happening here? What's going on? You assume naivety, but at the same time, one boy learned something at school and says, oh, this is how it works. Right. And it's like, oh, wow, this came quicker than we thought.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:39]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:39]:
So our oldest is eight, he's a boy. And then we have two girls, six and three. And I think we're wondering now, like, is it time to talk to our 8 year old? Very.
Barbara Wilson [00:06:52]:
Like, matter of fact, it's.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:55]:
Yeah. I mean even the other ones are.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:57]:
Five and six and three girls.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:58]:
Even your six year old.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:00]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:00]:
So yeah, I do a talk on crucial conversations through the ages and stages. You know, like, what should you start talking about even in that preschool? So even early, starting at four, you know, four or five. And I don't have the list with me now, but I have great resources even on my website, just there's a whole series of books that you can. Because I think for parents, you know, you don't just bring up the topic with a 4 year old, but using some tools, like having a great little book that's age appropriate that starts talking about, you know, so even at 3 or 4, you can start talking about mommies and daddies and what a family is.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:38]:
Good touch, bad touch. Right, because that's an important thing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:41]:
Yeah, These are great resources. In fact, my daughter in law was showing me about a book she got for her kids. One is for, you know, more younger, elementary about Good Touch. Not only Good Touch, Bad Touch, but I'm thinking about Good Pictures, bad Pictures. And then there's another sequel to that for older kids to be able to start.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:59]:
Sorry, is Good Touch, Bad Touch a book?
Kevin Thompson [00:08:01]:
No, just the idea. Just the idea of what is appropriate or not appropriate. And also when our kids were little, whenever we would go to the doctor, I would just explain to Silas or Ella, look, this is gonna be a place where the doctor's gonna be able to look at some places that other people shouldn't look. And so this is gonna be okay. Mom and dad are here. This is okay. It's appropriate. But if anybody else ever tries to do that, let's have a.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:27]:
This is what you do and how you have that conversation.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:29]:
Yeah, but not just about somebody touching them, but we need to also remind our children if someone wants them to touch them. Yeah, because I think sometimes that isn't communicated where children, you know, adults want them to touch them. And so. So, you know, kind of both sides of that coin.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:47]:
Okay, so then it's time.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:50]:
It's time.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:51]:
It's time.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:52]:
I think the. I mean, the big thing for me is we grew up in an age in which you hear about the talk. Have you had the talk? Am I going to have the talk? And that to me is so misleading because it pretends like it's one time, one thing that happens. Instead to me, it becomes this climate in which this is an aspect of life. And so if it needs to be talked about it, we talk about it. And along the way, communication.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:16]:
All the time.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:17]:
All the time.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:18]:
So for us, and this is just how we approached it, we had just a no slang rule. I got this from my doctor back in Arkansas. And so he had it with his family. I thought, that's a brilliant concept. So from the earliest of ages, we're gonna call things what they are. We're not gonna be embarrassed by them. We're not gonna have slang words. We're not gonna have that kind of thing.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:37]:
We are gonna talk about right as you begin to age a little bit. Look, it's not Appropriate to hold yourself like that in public. Well, it's not appropriate to hold yourself like that in the living room. Like if you wanna hold yourself that way, go to your bedroom. But we're not gonna do that in the living room. Funny story. Obviously Ella and Silas are very little. We're calling things like family value here.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:58]:
We're going to tell the truth. We're not going to lie to you. Don't have to tell you everything you know. We're not going to lie to you. We're going to call things the way they are. We are sitting at Thanksgiving lunch and my 89 year old grandmother is to my left, my 88 year old grandfather is to my right. Silas is at the end of the table the other way. And he's learning these things he's trying to process like what's what.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:19]:
Middle of Thanksgiving lunch, he goes, mama, have a penis. And being true to our word that we will not lie or try to tell you. And I said, not as far as I know. And so, but just, well, that's confusing. It looks around the table at how is this appropriate conversation? So you have to be prepared for the embarrassment.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:45]:
But I think it also creates the safety for your children. So if you're teaching them the correct anatomical words, then if someone is teaching them something different, they'll, you know, and they come home and they use a different word for that, then it's like a little clue for you. Okay, where did you hear that? So. Oh yeah, that's a good point. I have a funny story because, you know, because I started the same. I agree to teach your children the anatomical words. But my, I think my 5 year old, my oldest son, he went to school and the teacher, I don't know why they were teaching them about body parts. Anyways, he comes home and says, oh, I learned, I learned what a vagina is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:21]:
I said, oh, it's a vagina. And I said, he goes, oh, it's one of the, it's one of the girls private parts. I said, I said, I think it's called a vagina. He goes, nope. My teacher said it's a Regina and she should know.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:34]:
And you're in, Are you here, are you in Canada?
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:36]:
And I said, okay. I defer.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:38]:
Yeah, yeah, she should know.
Barbara Wilson [00:11:40]:
One wonder I have is the difference between, okay, this is how babies are made, right? This is what's going on here. But then when does it become appropriate as like, this is a very awesome part of marriage. It should be celebrated. I think a lot of our upbringing was like Learning from friends, watering it down, using it for our own use and satisfaction and feeling needed and all these things versus it being like the best thing. It should be celebrated. Because I think with our marriage, it's. It was only discovered in years 4, 5 and 6 that this is a lot of fun. You know, it was fear based, like, oh, this is gross.
Barbara Wilson [00:12:21]:
I don't know what to do. This is bad. This is. Are we supposed to do that? That doesn't make it so the difference between those two conversations of how to make it a positive thing versus a fearful thing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:33]:
And I think, I wish I could remember this book series, but I'll send it to you so you can put it up there. But I think Focus on the Family has one too that takes you through this developmental process with your kids to be able to introduce it, continue the conversation as they get older. But starting out that this is how God created families, Mommies and daddies and they get married and they love each other and, you know, then they have babies and start creating like this special love and then progressing from there in terms of what, you know, actual. So the, the deed.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:09]:
So we're, we're using the word sex to our 8 and 6 year old already is like, like when we're explaining it is that. I mean, probably the eight year old.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:19]:
Probably the eight year old probably already.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:20]:
Heard it, knows it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:22]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:22]:
But the six year old is like a little watered down.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:27]:
Yeah. So. So, so yeah, consider their development. Like when you're, by the time you're eight, nine, you're getting into more like abstract thinking. So you're able to start being able to, you know, understand kind of some of those nuances or conversations. That six year old is still pretty concrete thinking. So you want to just be careful how you, you know, kind of you. So mommy and daddy, you know, we have, you know, babies, we.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:51]:
There's something that when we really love each other. But again, I, you know, this, this book series really helps describe it because it also depends on the developmental stage of your child. What they've already heard. I would always tell my kids, hey, you know, you're gonna hear things at school. And I would say, you know, maybe things about sex that you don't understand or you don't know what that is. You can always come and, you know, that's an open conversation. You can always. So if you introduce that, then they know it's not a taboo subject.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:19]:
I didn't want it to be a taboo subject.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:21]:
No, we don't either.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:22]:
I do think parents have to Be careful of not putting all the pressure on the kids to bring it up. So the idea of, hey, if there's ever anything you want to talk about, you can talk to me about it. That's a great thing to communicate and let them know. But if that's the extent of it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:35]:
Oh, absolutely. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:36]:
It's kind boss that has an open door policy. Yeah. But it's a lot of pressure on the employee to walk into the boss's office.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:43]:
This is. Yeah. Understanding that you've already kind of introduced the topic.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:46]:
Help broach the topic a little bit. But let's kind of spin this now. We're not going to be able to have these conversations. Well, unless we can talk about it with each other. Let's talk about how do we have an open, honest, fair conversation with each other about sex, about intimacy in a way that nourishes the relationship instead of one that creates tension. So you talked about where this spun off from, and rightly so. Is family of origin can impact that. What are some other things that impacts for couples if they struggle to talk about this?
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:17]:
Well, I think body image can be an impact on that. And not having that permission to be able to talk about. If you feel like it's always a complaint as opposed to let's, let's be curious, let's try to understand each other. Then you don't want to talk about it. It becomes just a source of tension and fighting. And I think again, just like with your children, it's something you have to do intentionally. It's not just going to come up. You have to make time for that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:51]:
And if sexual intimacy is a struggle for you, being able to talk about it in a way that doesn't create pressure on the other person, you know, I think sometimes, probably getting some professional help or, or talking, or even just talking to another couple, that could help you have those conversations.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:10]:
I have a question. So because Blaine and I are. We're pretty open and we're open with our friends. And so if I'm with my girlfriends and we were genuine, genuinely just having like, conversations about our sex lives with our girlfriends who we trust, is that appropriate? Like, because you can learn a lot from your friends in, like a respectful way. Is that a way that people can learn? Be like, I don't know if mine's good or not. Like, what do you guys do? How much, how many times? Or is that disrespectful to your husband? Because it could be. I feel like some wives would be very private where I'm like, Super open, because I know he's comfortable with it. But what do you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:52]:
Yeah, I think that's something that you would have to, you know, talk about with your spouse because they may not be comfortable. Some guys are much more private about that and self conscious about, you know, this. And I mean, there is. There is some of that, you know, concept that that is something between you and your husband. If it's, you know, kind of general talk. I like, you know, I'm. I'm a girl. We girls like to talk and we.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:19]:
We learn from each other where we are more open. But some guys can have some problem with that. I think clearing that up and making.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:25]:
Sure that's o. I think for me, it would be a question of no doubt. Is it respectful? Yeah, I think that. Because I get in conversations sometimes and I'm like, I would never talk about Joni in that way. And it is a. It's a complaining session, right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:42]:
Yeah. That's not what I'm talking about.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:43]:
It can't be that. But then also the idea of. Are you talking to your husband about it?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:49]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:50]:
In other words, I can see some scenarios in which I'll go talk to the girls or I'll talk to the guys about it, but we're actually not talking to each other about it because the conversation with each other is where productivity can actually happen. That is a conversation with a guy friend for me, about sex generally is not gonna be that beneficial to Jenny and I's sexual intimacy. A conversation with Jenny about it, as long as it's honoring and respectful and curious and all those things, that becomes, I think, extremely positive.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:21]:
But honestly, something that really helped us was talking to a couple that was old than us and learning what worked for them. And it helped our sex life.
Barbara Wilson [00:18:29]:
But together much.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:30]:
But we were together.
Barbara Wilson [00:18:32]:
And I would, you know, parallel on that conversation with the guys where one guy is. Have. Has a great sex life, suddenly the expectations of the other guys in the circle are like, oh, wow, I guess that's what we should be doing five times a week. Oh, that. And it could be some guy thinking he's better than he is and he's insecure and all these real things.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:51]:
Right.
Barbara Wilson [00:18:52]:
But it's when you bring in, like, other expectations from, oh, what that's what they're doing. I guess I should do that. That's not what it should be. But I totally agree. We've learned from different places. It's like, go and do the research. That's okay to figure out what's the great.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:11]:
There's Some great books on. I suggested some. I've suggested some that are helpful and just even in terms of logistics, so of what might be helpful. And so, yeah, lots of research.
Barbara Wilson [00:19:23]:
And we felt, too, that we've influenced or encouraged or created healthy marriages in different ways for other couples. Because we have made it okay to talk about. Right. There's been conversations around. Like, some people are really uncomfortable with it, and you can kind of sense it. So we don't, like, go into details, but it's like, how's it going? It is the marriage counseling kind of scenario. Right. But amongst friends.
Barbara Wilson [00:19:46]:
And it's. But we know. Yeah. Our couples that we've been influenced by almost gave us a little bit of. But again, together. Not authority or, like, freedom. Permission.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:59]:
Thank you.
Barbara Wilson [00:19:59]:
Thank you. Permission to be like, okay. You know, we respect their spiritual walk. We respect them as leaders. They're doing okay. Yeah, let's try that. Like, let's schedule it. I think that was one of the things that we learned from the marriage conference once before, or whatever it was, was, like, it's okay for you to schedule it on a Tuesday night, because then I don't have to put the press pressure on her.
Barbara Wilson [00:20:23]:
And then it kind of got into a spot where it's just like, well, I don't want it just to be an act. I want it to be intimate. Well, let me get there. Because the more we have it, the better it will become. And that really developed for us.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:34]:
But then also, we've talked about, like, sometimes it is just get it done.
Barbara Wilson [00:20:39]:
And I have to be okay, and.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:40]:
You have to be okay with that. Because that's all I have tonight.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:43]:
Exactly. You know, I'm okay with that. You might have more desire, but your capacity is low.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:47]:
Exactly. And that's something we've had to talk about. And even, like, during the. Just me being in the moment, being like, I don't like that, you know, and being okay. I like that. That's good. I would never. I would just lie there like a.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:59]:
Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:59]:
He would call me a dead fish.
Barbara Wilson [00:21:00]:
You know, we're gonna cut that.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:05]:
Was that part of the foreplay or.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:06]:
What'S that Just saying it took.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:10]:
Exactly. And that's part of the learning and, you know, trying different things and exploring each other. And then you gradually create that permission or environment where you can feel safe.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:22]:
To do something and to normalize that process. I think that's one thing that we need to do is, I mean, if you're engaged and about to get married or if you're young Married, newly married. You can be thinking that, man, this is such a tension point. Something's messed up with us. No, no, no. That is as natural as anything. And it takes a process now of. Of learning how to talk about it, of being vulnerable, of making mistakes.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:48]:
And literally, I tell young couples all the time, look, good sex is probably a decade away. It's good, no doubt, but it's gonna get better a decade from now and two decades from now. And so to normalize, I think that process is so important.
Barbara Wilson [00:22:03]:
One of the people texted me last night, or a couple, whatever, a while back, and the question was, hey, we are getting newlywed. And the idea of sex is only good later on in life. What can I today? So that. It is great, right? And it is. I think it's a bit of the expectations that you have of it and communicate those expectations. Am I right, or.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:25]:
Oh, and it will be good. It's gonna be good. It's kind of one of those things of, you don't know what you don't know. And I do weddings all the time. And you look at this couple, and they literally love each other as much as anything in the world. But if they love each other, well, you talk to them 20 years from now, and they will say, I love them more now than absolutely. And it doesn't diminish what they had at the altar. It's just there's so much more life experience that's present now.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:54]:
So I'm not in any way implying you're going to have a bad sex life once you get married. I'm not saying that at all. For many, for a lot, it's going to be really good. It's going to be far better as you grow, as you mature, as you learn, as you get more comfortable spiritually together. No, absolutely. I think so.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:09]:
You know, the attachment we talked about releasing, oxytocin. That love deepens and gets stronger and you feel safer. You grow into higher levels of intimacy where, you know, you completely trust this person. And all of that is connected to sexual intimacy.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:25]:
Yeah. Let's talk about some practical things. Blaine and Adrienne, what is it that y' all learn from this older couple, from others, that really helped you make the transition to where this isn't nearly as much of a point of contention as it once was.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:41]:
I think for me, I just got permission to, like, have fun. Like, there's no shame attached to it when it's with your husband. And, like, you can enjoy it. Because for me, getting married and then being like, I don't Even know how to like let my guard down and just feels wrong, you know. But that was like an upbringing thing. What else?
Barbara Wilson [00:24:05]:
Yeah, for me, I think it would have been like, like the, the fantasizing about it. You see older brothers getting married and you're like, you know, I'm a romantic kind of guy. I have all the feelings and. And so then suddenly it was like, I have this picture of what it should be and we have a marriage now you're in two years in and it's like, this isn't anything that it should be. And so then my overcoming of I'm like, do you even love me? Like, what's going on here? I had to kind of come through that barrier because it was like my expectation wasn't met. But that was so far from her expectations. So that's why I get so passionate about like young couples of like, how early is too early, but also how soon can we start talking about expectations? Like, is this how you picture it? Is this what's going on? What, you know, that sort of thing so that you can communicate through that before you're guessing what the other person is. Because we've talked about this in the past.
Barbara Wilson [00:25:01]:
The vulnerability of it is big time. Right. So all the thoughts of body image and all these things, I'm now standing there in front of someone that I just got married to is like, what a nerve wracking scenario. And when he has this expectation, she has that one.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:19]:
So that's why I think it's important like in that premarital to talk about those expectations when it comes to sex and finances and parenting and roles. And then you're able to start really, you know, starting that vulnerability and expressing your expectations. I think that's really, really important.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:37]:
Yeah. And I think for us it really was one learning how to talk about it. That. So I didn't want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to be hurtful. Right. I have more of an anxious attachment kind of pathway. So I'm going to be holding back some of my thoughts.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:51]:
But Jenny's going to, she's going to know something's wrong. I'm just not going to tell her what it is because I don't want to hurt her. Right. Which actually creates the pain. And then to have the courage for her to say, kevin, why don't you just say that? It would make it easier if you would. And then what do those conversations look like? And then to learn. I mean, what we often do is, you know, I tell couples all the time do not talk about sex in bed. Right? That's a bad time to talk about it.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:15]:
Like, right, you know, let's not have the act and then go back and say, look at the black box. Where did this crash happen?
Barbara Wilson [00:26:22]:
Right?
Kevin Thompson [00:26:22]:
But instead, on a walk the next day, on a walk, let's talk about, what do you like, what do you not like? What worked, what didn't work. And so I always joke that our old neighbors are probably looking out their window going, oh, look at that couple walking. How sweet is that? Having no idea the actual conversation that we're having. But it's so much safer to have that conversation in the daytime, outside walking, not even face to face, rather than laying in bed with the pressure of, are we about to do this or not do this? And to have that kind of conversation. So I think to. To learn how to talk about it. And then you make mistakes and you forgive each other and you love each other, and you figure out, all right, how can I prevent that from happening again? How that went wrong? And so for me, really, it is more anxiously. I want to have sex.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:08]:
I'm afraid to say it. She feels the pressure of it, doesn't want to let me down. And then how do we navigate that kind of thing? And I mean, that's where things like the 24 hour rule and just some basic guidelines of here's how we can operate kind of came through. Barbara on previous episodes, we talked about attachment. And so with anxious attachment and avoidant attachment, how do they approach sex differently? And what could be some signs that. Now that's a little bit of. That's actually anxious attachment or avoidant attachment, not secure attachment when it comes to sex.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:40]:
Yeah, with anxious attachment, you know, they're looking for that connection. So if they're not getting that physical intimacy, they feel rejected or they. But with the avoidant, they're afraid of being disapproved or not performing. So then they tend to withdraw just because they're trying to protect the relationship, but also themselves from feeling like they've been a disappointment. And so that's where you kind of see it in the sexual intimacy. I see that a lot generally, in particular with guys. Not that there's. There is kind of a general thing where sometimes the guy can be the withdrawer, where he very much is insecure about just being accepted and living up to whatever those expectations are.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:29]:
And that can come into the bedroom where they feel like they can't please their wife or they can't perform. Let's say they have one night where they're not able to perform well. I mean, that could just derail them for months and months because they're so afraid to try it again. And then they end up being the one that avoids. And then. Then the pursuer is just becoming more and more anxious. So then they become more critical and demanding. It just creates this experience where they're missing each other and they really need some help to kind of get out of that cycle.
Barbara Wilson [00:29:04]:
I was going to just say, like, that some of those things reminded us at the beginning where it was, you know, come on. This is what we do as a married couple. No, this is gross. I hate it. It's painful. It's all the things. And it's just like, come on. No, no.
Barbara Wilson [00:29:18]:
To the point where it was, you know, I remember in one of our, like, nights or whatever, it was tears and pain and, you know, scared and this idea of, like, well, then I guess we're broken. I should just go there. You should go there. And then we went and saw Donna. Donna again.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:37]:
She's back.
Barbara Wilson [00:29:37]:
She's back. But to seek professional help, to have someone in the middle to communicate these desires and this. We were just missing each other. We wanted the same thing. We wanted a great marriage, but we didn't understand how far apart our. Each other's needs, our needs were. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:56]:
What's going on, Barbara, with pain and sex? Because from a man's perspective, it's just. I have no idea what's happening. And yet we've experienced this.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:05]:
Well, there's some medical conditions especially, I think, you know, like, obviously those first couple times, you know, there's some medical things that are happening that make it very painful. But there are some conditions, medical. One of them is that vaginismus that creates painful intercourse. And I have patients in my office that are struggling with that, and there is help for that, but often they're so afraid to talk about it that they'll go decades.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:36]:
Sheila Gregoire, in her book the Great Sex Rescue, she talks about, and I can't quote the stat by any means, but how much more common that is in the evangelical world than outside of it, I bet.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:47]:
And so why is that everything we're talking about? Because there's this. A taboo about talking about it. There's a stigma about it, and just not that permission to be able to be open and honest about it. So we kind of hide that. The other thing I want to mention, too, though, with painful intercourse for women in particular, obviously, is maybe some abuse in their past. So, you know, your body can Store those memories. And if there has been some abuse, then that can trigger your body memory to go into the tightness or the spasms that make it more painful. And so, you know, if that is happening, you know, I just encourage you to, first of all, you know, get checked medically.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:32]:
And if it's not something medical, then maybe it's something buried deep in your. Maybe your past that you don't even have memory of. That that would be helpful to explore.
Barbara Wilson [00:31:42]:
And you can, I mean, it's your story for sure, but it. The idea of just the tenseness, the fearness of the unknownness.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:50]:
Well, or just like not being able to relax. And I mean, a lot of that starts with your mind so that your body can relax, but yeah, not even be able to relax your body. And then if you're tense and you're trying to, you know, fit something into something else, it's painful. But.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:06]:
But also that goes to the foreplay piece, right? Because women get aroused through touch. So the foreplay is non existent. A woman doesn't get aroused and so then it doesn't prepare your vagina to be entered. So of course it's dry and it's tight and it's painful. So that goes back to. Is your spouse taking the time that women need to be aroused and to feel comfortable and to be able to relax. And that goes back to the mental piece, being able to get there mentally.
Barbara Wilson [00:32:41]:
That would have been some of the things that we learned early on in age where it was like, nobody taught me anything. So it was. I saw the movie, I did the thing. Okay, okay. First night, it's just like, just go. And it's like, whoa, what are you like, hold on here. But then I'll even further it to. Now with kids, it's tense, it's stressed, it's, you know, come on, let's do this thing right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:01]:
Hurry up.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:02]:
We only got five, ten minutes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:03]:
Right? Or sometimes I don't want the touching because I've been touched all day. So I'm like, just do it, do it quick. But then, you know, it's not enjoyable.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:10]:
Well, but I mean, that's okay too. Sometimes it's just, you know, it's just a quick thing to. For the other person.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:18]:
I want that on the Valentine's Day card, though.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:20]:
Do it, do it quick.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:21]:
Do it. Just do it quick. Love, Adrienne.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:27]:
Sorry for what I said when I was hungry.
Barbara Wilson [00:33:30]:
But when we discovered. And I know it's going to be encouraging for others, that's why I say it is like this idea of, you know, going off to a hotel weekend or taking time for ourselves or, you know, you find the. The time where grandma and grandpa can come and watch the kids. And it's intentional. There's a different human being when she's whisked away from all the stresses of life. And it usually doesn't happen that night you get to the hotel or that morning, and then, okay, now I can relax. And then I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is a new woman. This is amazing.
Barbara Wilson [00:34:05]:
Right?
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:05]:
Yeah. Give her a week, take me to.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:07]:
Mexico, and then see what happens.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:09]:
Get a combo for a week, and then see it.
Barbara Wilson [00:34:11]:
I can do anything.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:13]:
We talked about it before. I mean, that's where the research is, that one extra hour of sleep a night for a woman is more effective with libido than anything else science has discovered. So. Just the power of sleep alone.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:25]:
And women need more sleep than men.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:26]:
Men, yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:27]:
Like a lot more. I think I read that on Instagram and I believe it with my whole heart.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:33]:
Ella. Ella hasn't memed that to me yet, so I don't know if that's accurate or accurate. But. But I. I do. I do think, Blaine. I mean, this is something Jenny and I, I always prioritize. I think it's so important, and it.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:45]:
The expense of it does not have to be that extreme because you do not have to go to fancy places. If you have more means, then by all means. But can you create a space where we are annually, at minimum, going to get away, just the two of us? And how do you do that? And let's face it, some people look at that, and I get how blessed we were. Grandma lived next door, but on purpose. However, if you don't have that, okay, can we, with our sister, with our neighbor, with our church friends, can we create this concept? Okay, you take my kids for this weekend, I'll take yours for next weekend. And now we both get this space and we're honoring it. And yeah, there's a price to be paid. Cause now I'm gonna have to take care of all these other kids, but it's gonna be worth it for the importance of the connection.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:33]:
And there is this sexual reset, I think that can so often happen as you just have that time away.
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:40]:
Yeah. I mean, when we were younger married, we didn't have either family, but we had a church family. And we would do that. Exactly. We couldn't afford to go away to a hotel, but we would switch time with friends and just even staying at home and getting your kids out of the house. I mean, you can turn your living room into like a romantic, you know, like, oh, if you have a fireplace and we seduce, we just do stuff like that. You know, just put out a blanket and have a little picnic and, and turn it into something fun. But even for older couples, you know, you notice the difference once your kids leave the house and this freedom, like, to, you know, it just releases a lot more permission and fun and passion because you don't have that worry that someone could hear is going to run into the room.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:26]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:27]:
So let's talk about. Let's give the average couple out there who they don't regularly talk about sex. They have no idea how to start. What do we do? Well, one thing you can do, forward this episode to your spouse and say, hey, I just listened to this. I think it's great. Let's talk about this later. You listen, let's talk about it later. That's one way to go about it.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:47]:
What would be some very practical things that they could do to have this conversation? My thought on it is, is there a way that we can have our next conversation, Be a really positive one, and then we'll get to the issues. But let's have a win first. What would be some practical advice you could give to the average couple of. Here's one way to safely, securely, successfully talk about sex tonight.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:19]:
Well, again, it just depends on what the history has been. Often it's, it's. Well, often the guy will bring it up, maybe, or the wife, depending on who's concerned about it. This is where I think, like, having tools is a, is a good resource because if you don't know how to bring it up, then you have, I, you know, you have that talking points in your book. I have talking points in my book to be able to, you know, bring up these difficult conversations.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:44]:
So what you're saying is go buy friends, partners and lovers and read the lovers section and kiss me again. Exactly. Gotta learn how to promote right off the spot. Yeah. Well, I mean, one thought, Barbara, critique this. One thought I would have, again, if your relationship is generally in a good spot, but this is just an area you want to talk more about. All right, Go out on the porch, go to the hot tub, wherever, go on a walk. But I think on vacation, Jenny and I tend to find a place to sit and there's a view and the TV isn't on, the phones are not out.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:16]:
And that promotes now conversation. Right. And what if we just talked about, hey, here are three times from these 25 years that we've been married, that I still think about now. Let's just talk about the good. What was it? Here's what I liked. Here was the setting. Do you remember this moment? Do you remember this time? Okay, now, if I said the word, word married sex to you, what is it that comes to your mind? What are the good things? And let's start the conversation in a positive place. Here's what I love.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:46]:
Here's what I've enjoyed, and let's start there. And then over time, as we have these conversations, we can get into more of the. I'm uncomfortable with this. I don't like that. What if we change that? But I think so often the conversation starts with a negative that then hinders all the positive communication. Whereas if you can start with a positive, then begin to work toward the negative. That's kind of my thought. What have you all found successful?
Barbara Wilson [00:39:11]:
I was going to maybe ask. I was always ready to go. I was always excited to learn and do things. And whenever you say go, I'm ready. But how did you get to a spot where you were wanting to say go more? Or what were some of the key pivotal moments? Was it getting to know yourself? Was it making it, you know, like, when did you come more vulnerable? Because the person you are today is far more, you know, accessible to talking about it. But we. That was our greatest frustration in our marriage, was we didn't know how to talk about it.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:46]:
You're telling me that Adrienne, whenever y' all first got married, would not be on a podcast talking about sex? She wouldn't be.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:51]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:51]:
I'm actually surprised I'm here right now.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:54]:
Me, too, Adrienne. So I know you're feeling.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:57]:
That's a big question.
Barbara Wilson [00:39:58]:
Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:59]:
I. I think a lot of it was, like, our friends shared with us what worked for them and then give. Having the permission to be like, you can have fun, you can enjoy it, and you can talk to him about it. Like, you don't have to. He doesn't have to be guessing what is good for you. Like, so I don't know.
Barbara Wilson [00:40:20]:
Well, I think one of them was going to a marriage conference and being given tips and reading the book and giving like, hey, babe, check this out. Like, is normal.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:30]:
Like, I didn't even know that. Like, I could talk to him about it. I think I just. It was just so, like, a such a private thing, and it kind of freaked me out, you know, I don't know.
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:41]:
I remember my husband bought a book, you know, and just kind of said Here. Here's some fun things we could try, you know, so it. It started opening up the conversation. But, you know, for me, it was, you know, I. I was realizing that there was what was my problem, which is what led me to kind of explore with God, you know, where my hesitation was. And that led us to have a lot of conversations. And that really is what helped heal us and heal our relationship.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:12]:
I think this is an area. There's multiple areas, but I think this is definitely an area where if you try to do this on your own and you can't, okay, man, make an appointment. Let's go get some conversations, some professional help. And this, I've always told couples, this is one area, actually, that I think that you can get a faster return on investment in counseling maybe than any other, depending on what your circumstance is, because a professional can help you talk about what you actually need to talk about so much faster than maybe you can do on your own. So I think in the end, again, apart from active addiction, abuse or adultery, for everybody else, take a step, Find a way over dinner, go for a walk, find the porch, do something. And just say. And admit the vulnerability of it. Hey, honey, I want to talk about this, but I really don't know how.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:03]:
But can we have a conversation about this? And here's what I love and why I love you and what this looks like. And I think if couples can begin to have the conversation to learn to talk about sex, it will go a long way in changing the odds of marriage. Until next time, Blaine, Adrienne, Dr. Wilson, thanks so much for being with us. Kevin Thompson. We'll see you on the next episode.