Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hey, welcome back to Change the Odds, the podcast where marriage and family were never meant to be a game of chance. My name is Kevin Thompson, back with Dr. Barbara Wilson. Barbara, great to see you.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:00:07]:
Hey, thanks for having me back.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:08]:
So today we're talking about the holidays. What should be the hap. Happiest time of the year, of course, but always isn't the case.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:00:15]:
Give me a little ho, ho, hum.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:17]:
That's exactly right. So in my book, Fearless Families, in chapter five, I open the chapter on this. I'm talking about the idea of power in families and how sometimes we think we're acting in love, but we're actually using power in that way. So I just tell the story about Chris McKenzie. You know, he's from California, she's from Iowa. They get married, they move to Colorado. The holidays early on are very easy to handle. They go to his place Thanksgiving, her place Christmas.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:44]:
They switch the next year. Everything's great until the baby's born. And then they start talking about, hey, Mackenzie sang at one point, I want our son to wake up on Christmas morning in his own house in Colorado where it's beautiful. And so they finally celebrate Thanksgiving, where it's agreed to that this Christmas is going to be the Christmas. But they're supposed to go to Chris's house. And Mackenzie's like, hey, have you told your mom? And he's like, no, I haven't. So finally, Mackenzie calls the mother in law, says, hey, your son has something to tell you. Hands the phone over, right? And Chris says, hey, Mackenzie wants us to spend Christmas in our house.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:01:19]:
It's all Mackenzie's fault.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:21]:
And ideally, in that situation, what the mother in law would do is say, hey, son, put Mackenzie on the line. Mackenzie, hey, I am so sorry. I raised this boy that was scared to call me. Thank you for handing him the phone. I totally get it. We went through the exact same thing. Clearly, I want you at our place for Christmas, but totally understand why you can't be. Thank you for loving my son.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:41]:
Well, thank you for loving my grandson. Well, we're going to be in a great spot. Ideally, utopia is what that's how it should go. But instead, so often the way it happens is to the sun. Oh, but you know, this might be grandma's last Christmas and there is this guilt and manipulation and well intended in every way. And yet it just heaps guilt on a young couple. And it can splinter a family if you're not very careful. This is a.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:12]:
Holidays can literally be a make or break if you don't handle It. Right. And I'm sure in your practice you see this on a regular basis.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:02:21]:
Yeah, well, not just in my practice, but also in my own family because I have four adult children, three of them married, so. And then seven grandchildren. So we have been through all of this ourselves. So it's been a fun navigation of how to handle the family dynamics. For sure.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:39]:
Yeah. And it's been a radical change for us. So we went from my mom living next door to us navigating it with basically all three sides of our family. My mom, my dad and his wife, and then Jenny's side of the family, all within an hour. And so we could, on the same day we could hit multiple places. And so there was never this debate. Well, now we're halfway across the country and we can only go back for one of them because it's a little expensive to take four people back. And then whenever we're there, I almost just feel this continual guilt of wherever I'm at, I feel guilty for not being at another spot.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:03:19]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:19]:
And my parents and Jenny's mom is tremendous about this. Never any manipulation, guilt, never any just sly word. But I can only imagine with one word how that would just multiply kind of that effect. And so.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:03:35]:
Right. And even if the mother or the mother in law don't say anything, it's the emotional kind of feeling that they go through. So even for me, you know, dealing with that disappointment, but recognizing that these are how families change. In our family, what we do is we have everyone for one of the holidays. So this year we're having everybody for Thanksgiving and then on Christmas they go to their other families. Now for the kids that live near us, they can come over on the day after Christmas. And so then next year we'll have everybody for Christmas and they'll do their own Thanksgiving. And that's kind of worked well for us.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:04:14]:
Although it took us a few years to get one of my daughter in law's, you know, like to remember which holiday she was on. Cause her family's all local.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:21]:
So I can only imagine that. I mean it only takes one person in that scenario to object, to cause some problems.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:04:28]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:28]:
Yeah, no, absolutely. All right, so here's what we have. We have some scenarios in which people are dealing with. We're just kind of go back and forth and just give some basic concepts of how to handle this. So I'll start. So this person says, my parents got divorced a few years ago and since then the holidays have become really stressful. They insist on being in the same room for our sake. But there's so much tension, it's hard to relax and enjoy the day.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:58]:
How can I make these gatherings more comfortable for everyone?
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:05:01]:
Well, the last question is kind of loaded because you're not going to be able to make the gathering comfortable for everyone at all.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:08]:
Let's talk about that for a second.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:05:10]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:11]:
What's going on behind that question with this person and how can we make. Assist them in that process?
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:05:17]:
Right, because up to your point, there's this power differential where you have two parents insisting on being in the same room, and they. Right there, that's an inappropriate demand on their children, where if they're coming to their child's adult child's home, then their adult children are the ones that kind of get to decide how they want to. How they want that day to go. But in this case, you have somebody, you have parents that can be that, you know, kind of. Of demanding, that power differential, which is a problem in itself. And so obviously, there's a variety of ways you could go about this. You could just talk to the parents ahead of time and say, hey, it's kind of awkward, so can you guys make it less awkward? You know, like, don't fight or whatever it is. Or you could decide, I don't want to have both of you here at the same time because we want to enjoy one of you.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:06:10]:
So we're going to separate that out and we'll have you on one day and we're going to have the other parent on the other day. And that is up to the adult child's choice.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:20]:
But even the idea of how now she feels responsibility to make everyone comfortable, she's taking on a weight now that really isn't hers to take on. And you can. I mean, we don't want to read too much into this, obviously, but you can almost hear the power dynamics of the whole family, of how they played out. Maybe when the kids were little, mom and dad aren't getting along, she took on the identity of, okay, it's my job now to try to navigate all of this.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:06:49]:
The peacemaker.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:50]:
Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:06:50]:
She's probably the peacemaker in the home. That's right. And she always had to be.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:53]:
If you were to speak to her, how would you encourage her?
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:06:56]:
Well, I can relate to that because I think I was a peacemaker, and I still sometimes do that when all my kids are together with the grandkids and trying to deal with all the different relationships and the sibling order. And I sometimes feel that responsibility. I want everybody to have fun because I Want them to come back. Right. But, yeah, I think going back to your stay in your lane situation, you can't control what other people are going to do. And, you know, just really be confident in what you can. What you can do, what you can provide. I think that's a lifelong challenge for me.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:07:32]:
I just really pray about it a lot that I can focus on the people and not worry about what's going on inside of me.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:39]:
Yeah. And Barbara with a book recommendation. I mean, do you get a cut every time you bring this book? Yeah.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:07:43]:
I'm hoping you're gonna recommend one of mine before the day's out.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:47]:
All right, let's go. Scenario number two.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:07:49]:
All right, so this is Mike, and he's hosting Thanksgiving for the first time. But his family members all have very strong opinions about what dishes should be served. He says he wants to create something special, but he's overwhelmed by everyone's input, and how can he balance their expectations with his own ideas? All right, that feels very stressful, too. This is someone else that's taking on a lot of responsibility, trying to make everybody happy again. So what would you do?
Kevin Thompson [00:08:15]:
But he's hosting. I think the hosting there now implies some leadership of what's going on.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:08:21]:
I agree.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:22]:
So if I'm welcoming people into my house, then I do get to somewhat kind of set some parameters.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:08:29]:
My house, my rules.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:30]:
Yeah, exactly. Within kindness and all those kind of things. So I think if you have a family that's there, I would love to know the communication that's happening behind this. Because it could be that he is passively communicating, which now is unknowingly inviting all these opinions in, as people are just trying to be helpful, when in reality, if he would be a little bit more assertive in his communication, maybe they would understand what's going on. So why not say, hey, look forward to having everybody over. Here's the time in which we're going to have. Here's what I'm cooking. Here's some opportunities of things that you could bring, or if there's something else you would like to bring, what is it? Well, then, what he has to do and what he's preparing, what he's serving, that's already set.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:13]:
He's not asking for opinions on that. He's asking what other people want and desire.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:09:17]:
I'm doing the turkey. Who wants to bring potatoes? Yes, bring whatever you want. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of an easy one. But again, it goes back to what's going on inside of that person. To even be in that Situation which you've pointed out again, that power differential in the family and how to navigate that you can't make everybody happy. Once you're an adult, you're responsible for how you respond to different things.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:46]:
Yeah, well, I think oftentimes we don't even recognize sometimes how we could be playing in to the frustration, the dynamic primarily with our communication. And so if we're trying to not hurt feelings and appease and yet go after that in a very passive way, it just creates this uncertainty. I mean, this is kind of my go to in situations. I won't want to rock the boat, won't want to be offensive at all. But where I can lead people sometimes is trying to figure out what I actually think and what I actually want and desire. And that sometimes can cause them to begin to give me feedback I'm not asking for, but because I wasn't willing from the get go to say what I already had in mind, what I'm already thinking.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:10:28]:
But again, that goes back to this, you know, the family dynamic, the family of origin. So they were probably. This is already there how they would operate within the family. Right. So a lot of times it's recognizing kind of that dysfunction in that and being able to be willing to change.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:46]:
Yeah. So do people, how does that work? So do people revert back? Jenny, let me say it another way. Early on in our marriage, after the holidays, Jenny lovingly made a comment. I don't love you as much. No, I don't like you as much around your family. And it was the idea and it wasn't a critique of my family at all. It was the idea. We were living in Birmingham, Alabama at the time, going to grad school.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:15]:
We would come back home to Arkansas, my parents divorce. That one was much more fresh at the time and she just felt like I went into a shell that whenever I was there. And then as soon as we got in the car to come home, I'm back out. I'm my normal person. But you look at that, and that's probably the role I played as the youngest child is everything else that's going on so just kind of disappear. Don't break any rules, Just make sure everything's fine. How does that work? And then how do we break that cycle as we grow?
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:11:50]:
Yes, you're right. It's very hard when you get adult children back altogether. They do tend to kind of revert to like the oldest one is the bossy one, telling everybody what to do. I'm just thinking even about my own kids. Our youngest who was always, you know, kind of felt like he was, you know, couldn't live up to his older siblings and. But he has a different opinion on even politics and different things than the older kids. So they. They still kind of razz him a little bit, and then he gets into his defensive.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:12:20]:
And then they might even bring up something that they would have called him when he was younger, and he, like, literally can't stand it. And it's very interesting to see, like, these adults who, like, my kids are. My youngest is 35 to 41, how they can revert to this, you know, those kind of dynamics. And that's very true. And those are. That can make it difficult for the spouses, because when you have, you know, family members picking on your. On your spouse, that you start to feel very defensive for them, and then that can create this conflict between families.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:54]:
Yeah. And when do you. I mean, when do you even bring that up and say, hey, we're not five anymore. We're not 15. Or do you just kind of leave that?
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:13:07]:
Well, as a parent, I try to distract in, let's talk about something else.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:14]:
Right.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:13:14]:
Or. Yeah. Because it can create some painful things. But I think a lot of times adults don't really recognize that they kind of go back into that feeling because there's a lot of insecurities that come up when you meet with. When you're getting back together with your family, and jealousy. And there's so many, you know, as a child, you become. You do grow into someone different as an adult often. But then you come back into this family dynamic, and sometimes there is that feeling of pressure to kind of fit back into the role that you played as a child.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:49]:
Yeah. And it's just the natural pathway. This is just the way I've run my relationship with you my entire life. But it would be interesting. I'm intrigued now as I go back home at Christmas or Thanksgiving, I'm intrigued now of that idea of, can I recognize this is the natural pathway? Don't go down it. Let's choose a more mature, mature road.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:14:10]:
Well, and part of that is individually tuning into what you're feeling and what gets triggered for you. You know, like, when I go to my husband's family down south, they all have bigger houses. Like, they just have more. And so sometimes I struggle with, like, then I start to feel discontent. But then when I come home, I'm totally fine. And so I have to deal with that myself. And so. And that's where, you know, I just really pray about it.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:14:36]:
Like, it's not about me. How do I make other. The rest of the family feel comfortable? How do I focus on them and not on me?
Kevin Thompson [00:14:45]:
What's a healthy balance of that between making the. Because we just earlier talked about this person trying to make everyone comfortable being dysfunctional.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:14:53]:
Yeah. Well, again, you can only control how you respond. Right. And I think because, you know, it's interesting, I have some younger patients and they don't want to have fake relationships is what I'm hearing. So they want to be able to put it all out there. And I don't care how that makes you feel. If we're going to have real relationships, we got to put it all out there. And I find that an interesting concept because I think, yes, there's a time and place for that.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:15:21]:
But at a family gathering that is not the time and place to say, I don't care what you think about what I think. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to let you have it. It's not the time. Yeah, but it's kind of that interesting dynamic that I'm hearing. It's like I don't want a fake relationship. Yeah, but sometimes it's just being kind to not bring up a topic that you know is going to create conflict and it's maturity.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:45]:
No, absolutely. All right, so this person, their sister just became a vegan and my dad refuses to eat anything weird. It so sounds like me. I feel like I'm stuck in the middle. How can I keep everyone happy without having to make two completely separate meals?
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:16:02]:
Back to that. How can I make everyone happy?
Kevin Thompson [00:16:04]:
Do you see the pattern here?
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:16:05]:
Yes, I see the pattern.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:06]:
You know why? Because the people who don't care about that wouldn't write in, wouldn't call in. It's only those who actually desire the anxiously attached. No, that's exactly right. The avoidantly attached are not.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:16:17]:
They don't care.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:18]:
Leading their scenarios.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:16:19]:
Right. Oh, this is a hard one because we actually have this in our family too. I have a daughter in law who's vegan and then several of us are gluten free because we have celiac, which is my fault, which my children remind me all the time. So it's difficult. What we try to do is make at least one dish for my daughter in law. She is such a trooper though she doesn't complain, she's not expectant and she'll bring her own food. And so I'll say bring if you like something. I don't know what to go out and buy for you.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:16:56]:
So you bring Something that you would like, we'll cook it up. We try to have at least one tofu dish for her and she's very appreciative. Not, she's not demanding or expectant at all. Because for the rest of the family, we really kind of have to cook gluten free. So she doesn't need any animal products. And gluten free people eat a lot of animal products because they need the protein.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:17]:
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, you know, one of our co workers is vegan. And so it's interesting to watch the dynamic because we eat a lot together and have. We are in meetings and food's being brought in. And so I think we do see even within this relationship, a very beautiful kind of each taking responsibility in that whenever food is ordered, whoever ordering the food tries to be very thoughtful in ordering him something that's separate from everybody else, while at the same time he's always trying to be very thoughtful of always bringing something in case that's forgotten or it's not able to happen. And so I think for both parties to kind of have that mindset. I just heard of a great story of and I don't know if it's vegan or not. This is my own ignorance.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:04]:
Is it vegan where their stuff can't touch anything that's been around? Animal products, I don't remember well, and they can't.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:18:11]:
They don't eat anything that even has like eggs cooked in it. Okay, so no animal products I don't know about touching. They wouldn't probably.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:19]:
So this specific person, for whatever reason, cannot or does not eat anything that's also been cooked on material where animal products have been cooked. So the friend hears about this and invites them over. The husband says, hey, here's what my wife does. And so she'll bring her own stuff, don't worry about it. And the guy goes, no. And he goes out and buys a grill that's never been used, keeps it completely wrapped, waits till they come over. That way she can see that he is actually taking the wrapping off of this grill, cooked something very specifically for her. And later, what the husband said is, my wife never has had that happen for her before.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:05]:
And the honor that then went into that. Now, I'm not saying a family should do this every single. But there is a concept now of communicating to this person of, look, I love you, welcome to our family and how can we assist? While at the same time then the person needs to have this mindset of not having high expectations, of demanding this.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:19:27]:
I Think. Because I think for me, too, because with having celiac, I always make sure I'm bringing something and try not to, because it does create a lot of extra work for a host or hostess. But the other thing I was thinking about this, too, is a lot of people have a lot of opinions about vegan, and so even with the dad. So trying to not allow those kind of comments, that would be unkind or awkward.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:55]:
No, I think that's a great point. And to clearly communicate. I mean, it could come to a point where it's a conversation of, look, you can eat whatever you want to. Here's what I'm doing. Stop making fun of me for that or calling it weird or, you know, anything like that. Sometimes those conversations can take place. Okay, next scenario.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:20:16]:
Okay, so Joe wants to know his family goes overboard with gift giving every Christmas, and it's getting expensive. He'd rather keep it simple, but he doesn't want to offend anyone by suggesting that they cut back. So how can he start this conversation?
Kevin Thompson [00:20:30]:
Yeah, well, I think one with honesty is to say, look, I can't afford this. This isn't working for me. No judgment of what's going on with everybody else, but just an honesty of. It could be that others are uncomfortable with this as well, that they're keeping up appearances, or it could be a different economic dynamic within the family, and we see that on a regular basis. But to not feel the pressure here of keeping up with the expectations of everybody else and just stepping in, being your real self and saying, hey, I'm not trying to rock the boat here. However, this is too expensive for me. Here's what I can do. Want to do it, happy to do it, but I can't do anything else.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:12]:
And then again, control what you control.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:21:16]:
And I think that changes over time. You know, like, even with our family, at first, everybody's buying presents for everyone, but then kids come, and now it gets like, you're buying so many presents. And so. And then like our kids said, hey, let's. Let's start drawing names, or let's have the grandkids all draw a name. So we're only buying, you know, one gift for every child that we have, as opposed to us buying for every other child and you buying for every child. And so I think that's kind of a natural transition, and it's a very easy conversation to start. It just takes someone to start it.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:48]:
Yeah, yeah. The courage to actually start.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:21:50]:
Usually the oldest child.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:54]:
Okay, so this is the issue of our day right here, and it's politics and family.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:22:00]:
It's going to be brutal.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:02]:
Every year, my family, every year. So imagine what this year is going to be like. Every year my family argues about politics at Thanksgiving and it gets ugly fast. I love my family, but I hate the tension it brings. Is there a way to keep these conversations from happening? Solve that one, Barbara.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:22:18]:
Oh, it's an easy one. You send out a family text. We will not talk about politics at this Thanksgiving. I think you just. Whoever's hosting makes that, you know, kind of, hey, this is what I. This is what I request. Let's not talk about politics. That will create a lot of tension.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:22:38]:
And we do the same in our family because it can. Sometimes people have little side conversations, but, you know, as long as they're kind of polite or. But not as. Not as a whole group. Yeah, we kind of. I request that anyways. Sometimes my husband likes to stir up a little.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:57]:
So what happens when Uncle Dave walks in with his hat?
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:23:00]:
Oh, you would probably know that Uncle Dave just might walk in with the hat. So you'd probably talk to Uncle Dave on the side before he gets there. Hey, let's not wear that hat. Let's just try to create a common ground here today.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:16]:
Yeah. So what about some people who look at that and go, well, that's being fake and that's not real? I mean, how do we navigate that concept?
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:23:26]:
Yeah, but you're still bringing your real self. But you're coming into, like, it's a family gathering. And I think you can't expect to come into a family gathering and pretending that this is, like, your family of origin. Again, like, you have all these different adults coming together. And, like, you'd go into any other kind of gathering. Like, you would be careful if you were going into another kind of Christmas party without. You don't want to be intentionally stirring up conflict. If it happens accidentally that you don't mean to unintentionally, that's different.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:24:04]:
But to do it intentionally. You have some people that will do that.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:09]:
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:24:09]:
They love to create that kind of conflict and, you know, have a good old rousing debate. It's. It's just. It's not being very considerate of the other family members.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:21]:
Yeah. So back in Arkansas, I had somebody who was a little bit more progressive in their political leanings and an extremely conservative family, and they had this conversation of, hey, let's just get together as a family. Let's not worry about this. But there was one uncle who just. It was a huge issue to him and just like, he just took every opportunity to jab, you know, and obviously, politically, extremely conservative was his viewpoint. So I told him, I said, if that comes up, just remind him that making everything political is actually Marxist. And so he's actually being Marxist whenever he does that, and let me know how that goes. So.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:25:04]:
Well, you know, and that family.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:06]:
No longer eats together, so.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:25:07]:
Oh, really? Okay. Just kidding. The other issue, too, is because, you know, I work. I've been working a lot lately with families that are becoming estranged from their adult children. And it's not just political differences, ideology, moral issues, difference, especially with, you know, the trans and LGBTQ and some of the younger adults feeling that their parents are not being tolerant of that. And so I just think that all of those topics should be anything that is going to ruin the joy of being together as a family, because it's not necessarily about, let's get together and be real as a family. Like, you can do that one on one, but when it comes to the family, let's get together and remember the love that we have for each other. And like, my kids love to talk about the memories that they had up at our cottage that we had in Canada.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:26:01]:
And so they talk about fun memories that make them laugh. And. And so I constantly try to get them kind of more directed to that because that. That, you know, creates joy and a sense of warmth of. Of positive memories they've had together. And so you really want to encourage that.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:19]:
Yeah, And I think it really is within a family. To me, it's a. It' proper ordering of what matters in life. And there is something that is higher than my political thought. My political thought really doesn't matter. There is something higher than even aspects of my own life in that. In this moment, we're going to celebrate who God has allowed us to be, the family of origin he's allowed us to be born in. And that's not being fake to hold other aspects out.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:48]:
That instead, I think is properly prioritizing what really matters. And it is an intriguing aspect that maybe a younger generation has written in their head, this story that if the whole thing is not out on the table, then somehow we're not being real or this relationship isn't real. I mean, I disagree with myself half the time. And so clearly I can disagree with you and still have a great relationship.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:27:14]:
And I think there's just more emphasis on being authentic and real, which is great. It's just, again, there's a time and place for that and gathering with different people that you love and care about. With different opinions and different ways of parenting and different viewpoints on and, you know, financial, you know, differences. I mean, there's. You're bringing so many differences. And try to find the common ground that allows you to feel that for that love and that care to come out.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:47]:
Yeah. All right, next one.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:27:50]:
Is this you or me? Now?
Kevin Thompson [00:27:52]:
Number six.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:27:53]:
Okay, so this is Tom. He just got married. And both. Oh, we already did this. Both my family and my in laws expect us to spend Christmas Day with them. Starting to feel like a tug of war. How can my wife and I navigate this without disappointing anyone?
Kevin Thompson [00:28:06]:
So, Juan, you can't.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:28:10]:
You can't. You can't disappoint everyone.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:12]:
Even the disappointment, I think we gotta recognize that is. Okay. An aspect. Grief is an aspect even of the best parts of life. That you walk your first grader into school, there's grief that comes with this change of transition, this transition of season. And yet if you're not able to walk your first grader into school, there's grief as well. And so grief is a part of everything. So disappointment is totally fine.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:38]:
So if your kids got married and this is the first Thanksgiving or Christmas in which they won't be there, don't feel bad for feeling sad. That is a very legitimate reality. Even though you're happy for what they've created. It is a change of season. And every season brings with it new and exciting things, but also then sorrows that come with it. So I think you have to feel that and allow other people to feel that. That's totally justified. Now the question then practically becomes, how do we navigate this? And again, we come back to stay in your lane.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:13]:
What do you control? What do you influence? What do you have to accept? I control my schedule 100%. My wife and I are in control of our schedule. We get to dictate what we're going to do. Now, here are the parameters of what we're willing to do and how we can work with her family and both sides of my family. Here's what our schedule allows. Here's what we're willing to. And then it's up to them to look at their schedule. Here's what we can do, here's what we're not willing to do.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:41]:
And then see is there overlap most of the time there is for us. There always has been. There's ways that we can all give and negotiate and all those things. Sometimes there's not. And if you can't work it out, okay, let's pick another date. Let's pick another Time. Let's pick another season where we're going to say, all right, for this group, this is going to be our family time. It's not ideal, it's not what we want.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:05]:
There can be frustration on both sides, but it's just the practical reality of how all of this works. We can't get so caught up on the day and the date and because we're not careful, we can unfairly almost begin to, like we began the episode, have a power play.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:30:25]:
Well, you push your kids away.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:27]:
What I want is more important than what you want. And I expect you, if you're going to love me, you have to fit in this way. That's just not the reality of how it works.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:30:35]:
It doesn't work, you know, and you know, there are like, for example, let me see, two of my daughter in laws have divorced parents and so, you know, they have to navigate two, you know, kind of holidays on their side. And I think that's, that is difficult. You know, when I work with a lot of moms who are having to let go of their kids and there is a lot of grief and there is a lot of pain and I think it's nice when an adult child can recognize that and say, hey, I know that's hard, but we're gonna, we're gonna make it work. But from, from my perspective in my journey, when I started going through a little bit of that grieving, I mean, I would really just take it to God, you know, like pray, pray a lot about it. But God gave me a different perspective on like my daughter in laws are really having to navigate a lot with their families because their families are putting a great deal of pressure on them and using a lot of guilt. And I didn't want to do that. And even though I had to absorb some of that grief to, you know, have them less, I didn't want, I didn't want to add to that with my kind of guilt. Although my kids say that I'm very good at the guilt trip.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:31:50]:
But you know, I disagree. But you know, it's been a journey. I think it's a journey and it's once your kids, you know, get married, but especially when they start having children, it's, it's, it's something to navigate. I don't want to, I don't want to dismiss how difficult that can be.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:10]:
No, not at all. And I think to give tremendous grace to everybody, especially when things initially change, that we're all having to try to figure out a new pattern, a new habit of what's going on knowing that even that's going to change the family continues to get added onto. So I think to recognize and again to allow grief to take place, have meaningful opening conversation if at all possible and then you just do the absolute best you can and then begin to move on. But I think the expectation that sometimes we place on this and really suck the life out of everybody. And generally speaking, not always true. Generally speaking, over time, I think whichever set of parents is the most thoughtful, respectful, generally speaking, they will actually reap a reward of a healthy relationship versus those who might manipulate and guilt and get the Christmas time. But you're gonna lose an aspect of the trust.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:33:11]:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:12]:
So which do you want?
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:33:13]:
It's your look at the long haul. Zoom out and look at the future and just the impact that you're going to have be able to have on your. The influence and impact you're going to have on your kids and your grandkids when you're just gracious and kind. And you know, I was thinking too, you know, I've written an article on the percentage of people that experience a lot of depression and anxiety over the holidays. It's like over 50% for most people. It's very interesting. Christmas and the holidays are not necessarily the best time of the year or happiness. It really brings up a lot of other emotions, especially grief and loss and things like that.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:33:57]:
And so just I think that is important for people to maybe have some cognizance of that. Everyone is. There's just a lot of various emotions going on during the holidays because marketing gives us this idea that we should all have these perfect houses and perfect Christmas and most families, it doesn't happen that way. And then, and then we feel this disappointment or you know, disappointment in ourselves and that there's something wrong with us when there's really not.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:27]:
Yeah, let's. Let's get into that. Even that idea of what I would say sometimes with the holidays you just want to survive in advance. I mean that really is the. So even in this scenario, this person writes in we lost my mom earlier this year and I don't know how we'll handle Christmas without her. Everyone seems to want to ignore the loss, but it feels wrong not to acknowledge it. How can I honor her memory without making the day feel sad? And I even think there, I mean, I just often tell families, especially if death happens. So we're recording this early November, right? Late October, early November.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:04]:
Death happens right now and the holidays are right there. And I oftentimes will tell people Two things. One, generally the lead up is actually worse than the actual day. So that's just a general. May not be true for you, but then two, it's okay for this to be sad, and it's okay that your only goal is, I'm going to get through it. And January is coming, and let's jump into that now. We don't want that to become every single year. Hopefully not.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:35]:
But this idea that first year, though.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:35:37]:
Is really the first year of holidays after a death. You know, you have to expect that every holiday is going to bring up memories. So, you know, I work with a lot of patients that go through this. In fact, I lost my dad just like two weeks before Christmas many years ago now. But so I recall, everyone is already sad. Right. So you can't not make this day sad in some ways. So I always recommend have a moment, have set, you know, plan something where you are going to honor that person, where everyone just might be sad, but out of sadness comes.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:36:20]:
There's something very healing about that. Like, we want to avoid these emotions. And yet, you know, we talk about containing grief, like after you lose someone, like, not, you know, like having. Containing it for a certain part of the day, not having it all day. And so that's what I even suggest on those kind of special holidays, like have a moment, have, you know, have a picture, have a prayer, have, you know, talk, have a toast, you know, talk about some memories. But then also plan something that would be joyful or fun that day, too, so that it's not all about sadness. So then you're still honoring that person and you're still giving everyone a chance to have a moment of grief, because that will be hard.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:02]:
Yeah. I do think in this scenario where you have some family members who never want to mention it, I could be wrong about this. You can correct me. But I think if you follow that approach, it will actually multiply the sadness. Whereas if you actually confront it, it will add to the sadness, will be added to with joy, with community, with probably good feelings and good memories. It's kind of like, you know, people sometimes will say, oh, I don't want to have a funeral. I just. I want my memorial service to be really happy.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:32]:
Okay. But if we live in denial of the sorrow, it will probably actually begin to put a limit on the happiness. Whereas if we lean into the sorrow, it then opens us up to experience all these other good emotions as well.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:37:43]:
Yeah, people who are willing to actually go through a grieving process do better than people that say, you know, I'M just going to move on. I'm not going to grieve.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:51]:
Stuff it. Stuff it doesn't tend to work.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:37:53]:
Stuff it like a turkey.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:54]:
Let's conclude with this situation. And my uncle has a habit of drinking too much and making rude comments every Christmas. It's upsetting, and I don't know how to handle it without causing a scene. Any advice?
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:38:07]:
Well, Emma, everyone's gonna. Well, obviously if you have alcohol at your holiday, someone might. Especially if you know that person ahead of time. I would probably a couple of things. I would start to recognize when uncle is having too much and I would cut him off. Or you might talk to him ahead of time and say, you know, but. And then if you. If he's speaking kind of starting the rude comments, you got to have somebody who's going to go, hey, uncle, come on, I want to show you this thing in my office.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:38:41]:
Kind of get him out of the room and kind of distract, distract, divert. But definitely, if you're the host, you know, you can start making alcohol unavailable for Uncle.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:54]:
I mean, it's easy for me to say, I don't drink. I first read that and I'm like, why is the family still having alcohol? Like, just don't have alcohol for the dinner and let's see what happens.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:39:03]:
You do that.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:04]:
Or I like that response. Or also then the idea of, look, if you're a guest there, if you've clearly communicated, look, I'm not going to stand for these comments. There could come a point in which you choose to leave of, you know what? I can't control the setting, but I can control if I'm in the setting or not. And there's just an element. If I have little kids, my little kids are not going to be around somebody who's drunk. If I'm uncomfortable with that and I've kind of laid out what I'm comfortable with, then I might remove myself without any sense of guilt or anything. You control what you control.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:39:42]:
Right. You're saying as a guest, you could just leave? Yeah, absolutely. I was thinking more about host. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:47]:
As the host. Yeah.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:39:48]:
Then you would have to take control of your house. And I think that's, again, that power differential. If it's an uncle, you feel like you can't step in, but you can.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:55]:
Yeah. And even if I'm the host, maybe I'm calling the uncle an Uber and just saying, look, you can drink at my house. I'm fine with that. But you can't be drunk at my house. That's just a general rule. And if you reach that point, we're going to ask you to leave and we're not going to endanger you. We're going to take your keys. Actually, we're going to call you an Uber.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:13]:
Okay. So, Barbara, to close, if you could just give some general advice. Good families out there, tough situations, all those kind of things. What's some general principles of how to navigate the holidays in the most meaningful way and not in a way that's going to lead to family strife?
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:40:29]:
Well, I think just being willing to. First we talked about what we're going to communicate about, you know, like being willing to not bring up topics, being willing to maybe adjust your attitude a little bit and recognize that everyone's going to have differences. You don't need to, you do not need to make a comment on everything that's brought up. You don't have to remember that, you know, these are, if it's a family, these are people you love and you want to focus on the love that you have for these people and you want to care about them because they're all God's children. And we all have differences. But we don't need to make make Christmas or the holidays the time to debate or to change, try to change someone's mind. So, you know, we just have fun. Just try to think about fun things.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:41:24]:
If you're a host, sometimes I plan little games and stuff which also can cause conflict among siblings.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:31]:
But it's good conflict.
Dr. Barbara Wilson [00:41:32]:
Yes. Some competition, but yeah. So it's just, to me, it's like common sense. How do you come in? How do you come in and start thinking about how to take care of the people around you as opposed to what your rights are.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:46]:
Absolutely. Well, one of the reasons families have difficult times of the holiday seasons is they don't have language to communicate how to navigate these difficult issues. And that's one of the gifts of stay in your lane. Very simple insights to figure out. What do I control? What do I influence? What do I accept? If before the holiday season comes up, if you will, send this to every family member and just let them know, hey, I was just thinking about what our holidays are going to be like. Read this book. Let's consider it. It will give you language to have meaningful conversations.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:14]:
And we think you can have a meaningful holidays. And that's one of the ways we could change the odds. We'll see you next time.