Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hey. Welcome back to Change the Odds, the podcast for marriage and family. We're never meant to be a game of chance. My name is Kevin Thompson. Blaine and Adrienne.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:06]:
Hola.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:07]:
Here we are.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:08]:
Yes, we are.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:08]:
Okay, everybody good today?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:10]:
Oh, very good.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:12]:
It is a little cool. Little cool here. A little different. What's the. What's the opener for us, Blaine?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:17]:
What we got today is the question of vacation. Okay, so I'm for it. What we're trying to figure out is are we going on relaxing vacation or are we going on a sightseeing activity vacation.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:30]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:31]:
And how. How does a couple navigate that?
Kevin Thompson [00:00:33]:
Love it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:34]:
This is actually honeymoon. It was an interesting scenario that developed because of expectation was one wanted a sandy beach. We won't say who. One wanted a sandy beach. The other one wanted to see the world. And so the one that got to see the world convinced that this was.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:55]:
They won and they got what they wanted.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:57]:
Exactly.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:58]:
Once in a lifetime trip. So we figured we'd go for it. But curious.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:01]:
I love it. I love the question. Here's what I encourage couples all the time. We actually need to create a vocabulary of us because there are words that we use that we assume we mean the same thing, and they don't mean the same thing. And one of those words is vacation. And so however you grew up, that's what you think vacation is, and you just assume that's what vacation is to everybody. And so for my family, we would go the first week of August every single year to the panhandle of Florida, to the beach. It would be a week with another family.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:35]:
Guys would play golf, ladies would stay out on the beach. We all go out to dinner. You did that for seven straight days. You came home. That was it. Same place, same activity. It was same golf course. It was the same everything.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:47]:
That to Jenny sounds like hell.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:49]:
Correct? Correct.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:51]:
She wants to explore and experience new things and all these kind of things, all about it. And so for me, vacation means you do nothing. For Jenny, vacation means you go do all these things you never get a chance to do.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:03]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:04]:
And so you have to define it first of all. Define what you're talking about.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:09]:
I should have told us this a long time ago.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:10]:
And then I think for couples is you begin to navigate and you see value in both and figure out, is it every other year, is it however we do that? So a year ago, around this time, actually, Jenny and I, my mom was in and we popped over to Hawaii because we're close now, and we had a vacation unlike we had had in some Time in that most of our vacations, one of us is working.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:37]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:38]:
So she owns an advertising agency, so she has travel. Right. Obviously, I speak. So I'll speak. She'll come with me, we'll tack on a couple of days. Correct. So it's a great tax wise, all those kinds of things. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:50]:
However, we're always. One of us is always working. So we went to Hawaii last year for like five or six days and did nothing. And it was glorious for both of you. It was gold.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:01]:
Like, she liked it too.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:02]:
She liked it, too. Now, that's not how she'd want a vacation all the time, but every now and then to do that in a different way. So I think it really does become. You got to define, clarify, and then change up on occasion.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:15]:
And it makes me wonder about how many things you bring expectations into a marriage. Right. And then it's like, well, no, this is how. How our family did it. This is how mom does it. So mom made the dinner. Mom did this, mom did that. Why aren't you doing that? What's going on here? Where did that happen? You know, so 100%, it's another episode.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:35]:
How do y'all like the vacation? If it were up to you individually, I'm a beach.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:39]:
You don't do anything. You lay on the beach. You read a book. You just chill. And then we went to Italy for our honeymoon and we saw everything.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:48]:
Mia.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:49]:
And to our friends, she came across as, like, the most ungrateful person.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:53]:
I was. Yeah, I was.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:54]:
And maybe at the time, yeah, I.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:56]:
Could have responded better.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:58]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:58]:
But it was just an expectation thing. I had to shift my expectations, like, okay, this is not gonna be a relaxing vacation, but it's gonna be awesome.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:06]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:06]:
We're gonna learn some history.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:08]:
I would have got to know that forever long. Her honeymoon meant a sandy beach. I never knew that, nor did I ask. I just thought I was some wonderful.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:17]:
Well. And then he's like, I'm the hero. I planned this amazing trip. And she's like, ungrateful. So that was a bit of a tension, for sure.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:25]:
Yeah. Well, welcome to marriage.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:26]:
We're here for it.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:27]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:28]:
Right off the bat.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:30]:
I think it's great.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:31]:
I think it happens so often. And again, it just goes to show that concept of we mean different things by the same words. But then also it gives us insight of how often we try to love others the way we want to be loved. Right. And to see the intention behind that. Because here's what can happen if we're not very careful. Like, Adrienne, you could just write the story. He only cares about himself.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:53]:
He doesn't love me. He's not looking out for me. No, no. He just didn't know. All right, now, how do we communicate to each other? Here's how I like to receive love. Here's how you like to receive love. And again, then it gives you insight of cause. What would it be like if out of nowhere, he planned four days where y'all could go down the desert and do not nothing? Like, it would be a gift, right? And so.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:14]:
And then you can plan activity for him where he's gonna be all excited and seeing all his people and doing all his things. So it gives you insight of how to love the other person as you start to understand these differences.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:22]:
Like, for example, this morning, I surprised her with a nice coffee, right? Oh, my gosh, that's nice.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:27]:
Second time this week, Kevin. I know.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:30]:
I'm waiting for her. When is she gonna surprise me with someone?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:33]:
She's surprised me with a few things. I'm like, will I. Okay, I know what that means.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:38]:
She surprised you with a podcast recording.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:41]:
A Time with Kevin O.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:43]:
All right, guys, we're gonna talk about today, something that a lot of people don't like to talk about, and yet something that I think is very important. So we're gonna go back, think about my time in married life, kind of working with marriages. Writing about marriages goes back, you know, 13, 14 years ago. I had a website back when blogging was a thing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:04]:
Oh, nice.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:05]:
You had a blog.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:05]:
Yes, I had a blog back in the day. Back in the day with no AI, no AI, no. I was literally writing the blog, every aspect of it. So I wanted to write. And so literally from 10:00 to 12:00 at night is when I would write. Kids were little and Jenny would edit and do the graphics. And this, yeah, this was a thing back in the day. That's how I started writing.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:29]:
And my most read, there's two articles I would say that I wrote that really propelled me into married life ministry. Right. The first one was called the number one cause of divorce. We can talk about that in a different episode. The second one was the most overlooked characteristic of who you want to marry. And the issue is this, you and I want to marry somebody who can suffer. Well, because life is guaranteed to hurt. And so the question then becomes, especially think about this, no matter what age you are, but we'll go through different life cycles of a day is going to come in which you're going to stand beside the Casket of one of your parents.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:10]:
Who do you want holding your hand in that moment? A day is going to come in which a doctor is going to walk into your hospital room and either give a bad diagnosis to you or to your spouse. Who do you want that spouse to be in that moment? Parenting is going to create challenges that you can't even begin to imagine. Who do you want walking beside you through those things as your kids struggle, as they experience heartache? We think all the time, especially if you're young, dating, or thinking about it, oh, man, I want this beautiful person. And that's great. Attraction is important. I want success. I want money. All those things.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:51]:
Great. That's fine. One thing we do not think about is this concept of if you can marry somebody who suffers, well, that will be such a comfort to you in the midst of the hardships of life, which are guaranteed. Whereas if you choose somebody who doesn't know how to suffer, well, it will be a grief on top of a grief that then just makes life so much harder. So one thing I can guarantee the two of you is that life is going to suck. And who do you want walking beside you in the midst of those difficult days? What does that look like for y'all?
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:30]:
Yeah, I mean, we've had a couple of different scenarios in life where I think we've been very fortunate with a wonderful, healthy life and a lot of great things. But there was a scenario that happened after our second child, so we had two children and we were pregnant with a third, and we unfortunately had a miscarriage. Through that process was very interesting. How we suffered and how we communicated and how we had to get to know each other through that process. And I do feel like we can now use that example to help others. And, you know, we love to just verbalize our feelings and things like that, but I was very proud of how Adrienne was able to utilize her influence and social media wise, but also just really kind of a call for, I think, your life with Jesus to say, share your story. And it suddenly gave a big voice to other people that might have not found how to say the things that they were feeling. So.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:32]:
And it is majority your story, but it's our story. But at the same time, do you.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:37]:
Feel comfortable sharing it?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:38]:
I do, yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:39]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:39]:
Do you want me to go into detail?
Kevin Thompson [00:09:42]:
Sure.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:42]:
Okay. Well, it started I was 15 and a half weeks pregnant. And I feel like 15 and a half matters because one every week, it just. It's farther along, you get more attached. Anyways. Okay. So I have two kids Four and two and Blaine is gone. He's not home.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:04]:
He is out on a pastor's retreat, like five hour drive out of cell service. So he's gone. So I'm cramping this day and I'm like, oh, it just be because I'm on my feet. I'm like chasing after the kids. I can't sit down. And kind of goes on and off all day. I text, I put the kids to bed, I text my friend, I'm like, I'm cramping today. That's normal, right? She's like, yeah, probably fine.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:27]:
You're fine. And the cramping kind of starts to come, like rhythmically, and I'm like, oh, my goodness, are these contractions? And all of a sudden my water breaks. And so I'm at home. 4 and 2 year old are asleep. I run to the toilet and the baby's there.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:45]:
Wow.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:46]:
I can see the head. And I'm like. And up to this point, all my blood work, my ultrasounds, they're great. There's no issues. This was a complete shock. And I'm like freaking out. I panic. I'm like sitting on the toilet and I'm looking for my midwife's number.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:06]:
Cause I'm like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Blaine's not home and we don't have family around. We just have friends. Anyway, so I. I get ahold of my midwife and she's like, okay, I'm gonna come, but it's gonna be about half an hour until I can get there. And I'm like, okay. And at this point I keep looking and the baby's like slowly falling out and eventually fell into the toilet, which is one of my big regrets.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:32]:
I wish I would have scooped it up and wrapped it in a blanket, but I was in primal shock mode. And again, no one else is around. So I call my friend. She doesn't answer. I call another friend, she's like, I will be right there, but it will take me 45 minutes there. And so I'm like, okay, all right. I. I have this moment to kind of pray.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:53]:
And in that moment, I am completely alone. But I'm not alone. I just. I felt the presence. I'm like, okay, I don't know what to do, but God's with me. We're gonna figure it out. The midwife tells me, I need you to put a towel down so I can see, like, how much you're bleeding. I'm gonna have to come and get the baby out of the toilet.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:11]:
And at this point, my. Sorry, this is very graphic, but my placenta is stuck and I have to go down. Okay, so our townhouse is through four. Four stories of white carpeted stairs. And I have to figure out how to get downstairs and unlock the door. So I tear the placenta and I. I hold a towel and there's this towel that we got for a wedding. And I'm like, this towel is going to be done after this.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:40]:
And I'm like. I'm just so, like, logical in this moment. Meanwhile, I also send you a very, very descriptive, very, like, cryptic, almost like voicemail, because I'm like, just trying to communicate with him, hoping he gets it. Yeah, yeah. So I make it down the stairs, carpets are fine, and I can only make it back up one flight because I'm losing blood. And. Yeah, so I'm waiting for. The midwife finally comes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:12]:
My friend comes, and I am just like. It's just the most humbling experience to be like, laying on your kitchen floor being like, I'm bleeding, I don't know what to do. And they were just. Yeah, they came and she had to give me a shot to get the placenta out and all this stuff. She's like, I think we need to go to the hospital. I'm like, hospital? Why? Like, what? What? And she's like, well, you're probably gonna have to have a DNC to get everything out to make sure there's no parts left. And so I couldn't make it down the stairs. I was.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:44]:
I had to crawl backwards because I'm, like, so dizzy. And the shot makes you lose more blood. So they had to call an ambulance, which I just thought was so embarrassing because we were in this townhouse complex where everyone can see. Meanwhile, my kids, thank the Lord, stayed asleep.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:59]:
Wow.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:00]:
No one wake up and ambulance comes. So we go to the hospital. And this is all during COVID So it's all like a weird time. Canada was very locked down. I could have one person come in and out, and my friend met me at the hospital. Luckily, her husband came to stay with my kids, which was very. We're so grateful for them. I have a DNC or no.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:24]:
The nurse and doctor are about to come in and I haven't talked to Blaine yet. I'm like, he has no idea.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:30]:
It's 3:00am yeah, it's 3:00am it's interesting. I'll interject on my side. So I'm out in the boonies with these guys doing this male bonding Trip. And for whatever reason I have my own little tent in this area. And I just wake up at like I want to say 1:00 or maybe it was 3 or something like that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:50]:
I know it was middle of the.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:50]:
Night, it didn't matter. And no self service, right? And so then I look up and I see, oh, I have a voicemail. And so I listened to this voicemail and it was at the process of her experiencing this at home. So this had been, you know, hours prior to this or whatever. And now I'm sitting here, no cell service, call, call, call, call, call, call, nothing through. And then finally, for some reason I think you called me back.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:17]:
Oh, maybe I missed it or something.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:19]:
Well, no, but there was no, it was immediately no, no connection, right? And then suddenly it calls back and I pick up and, and I'm like, are you okay? What's going on?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:28]:
And this is right as the doctors and nurses are coming in to take me to the dnc. So it was like, I'm like, I'm going right now. Like I'm okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:36]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I don't know what to do. Like I'm just sitting here like we're supposed to leave the next day, but we're supposed to leave at like 1pm I'm like, let's go now. Like it's a five hour drive. And and so she's like assuring me she's such a champion at this time where she's like, no, I'm okay, I'm at the hospital. This happened. Our friend is at the house with the kids. Everything is okay, it's going to be okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:03]:
I was like, okay, it's not okay. But what was like interesting for me was one of my greatest fears was that she would die in childbirth for some reason. That was just one of these things that stuck with me. So all of these fears are happening and just sitting with God and then the emotional part, if I can say it, is the processing part, like this is a child. I don't know if we gotta like take a second but very clear vision of an 18 year old child with Jesus and just knowing he's okay, like he's in heaven now. It was very like fast forward processing for me to understand. Like, it's gonna be okay, right? And so it sucks that this happened, but he's in heaven and this is awesome. And so I'm having a really emotional night, just kind of staying up all night.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:06]:
And so what was, what was interesting was it was a motorcycle trip up the mountain So I don't drive a motorcycle, but I was driving the truck behind everybody so that if somebody had a breakdown, we could put the truck or the bike on the back. And so. And so I'm waiting in my car at 7am and what was great is we were with pastors, and then they are knocking on my window, and like, these are good buddies, so nobody could get ahold of me. Initially, she was telling all of her friends, somebody tell Blaine, somebody tell Blaine.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:41]:
Or get to the people who are with Blaine.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:43]:
Yeah. And so they got to the people that were with Blaine, and they're crying, they're coming to the window, and they're like, did you hear what happened to Adrienne? And now I'm like, what? She. Because she was losing all this blood, and I'm like, no, no. Like, now I think she's dead. And then like, oh, you lost the baby. And I was like, oh, yeah, no, he's in heaven. It's all good, right? But what was fun about that moment for us was how many guys were affected by this in their marriages, in their lives, and they were able to kind of talk through some of this stuff. And so I end up going on a five hour drive back with you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:16]:
They're like, let's go right away. Let's get you home. That was all good. And the guy who's sitting beside me had a really powerful testimony, too, where he had lost a child at birth, a twin, one of their child. And he had talked for five hours as I just drove and listened to him process and kind of share his story. He's like, I never told anybody this. And it was like, wow, maybe that was why we're driving in this truck.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:42]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:44]:
How did y'all grieve differently in the. In the weeks to come? Or is that something that drew you together? Were there difficult moments which you were kind of pushed apart?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:53]:
It was weird because, like, I got home from the hospital the next afternoon and he came home and he had missed just everything. So I felt like, you have no idea what I just went through. And, like, I'm sad that we lost this child together. I'm sad for both of us. But, like, this was, like, pretty traumatic. And I don't know how to convey this to you. I don't know how to even just tell you all the thoughts and fears and feelings that I went through. So there was this disconnect of, like, you'll never understand what I just went through.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:28]:
But then I think. So I think we had to grieve kind of separately I remember you came home, our friends took our other two kids and we could just talk, we could just process. I could just share everything that happened. He could share his thoughts and feelings about what happened and like, how him not being here was also just as hard for him to not be by my side.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:52]:
And the guilt, like, there's a lot of elements of guilt where I'm like, why am I on this stupid trip? And things like that. But it was, was interesting for me, I think, to. And not to speed up the story, but talking about the grief and what I can remember from it is I think I had processed it pretty quickly. Like I had that certainty that, you know, things are okay, this child is okay, in heaven with Jesus. Okay, that gives me some comfort. But then as I was very emo, very emotional, as you can still tell, but out of the gate, I don't know that she was emotional. And I was like, what, what's going on here?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:31]:
I just went very like, logical. I'm like, I gotta, I gotta get downstairs. I gotta, I gotta figure out what's next. I just went into survival mode. And I was even very concerned about like, my midwife was eight months pregnant. I'm like, you should not be here. You should be at home resting. Like, why are you here helping me? Also, this is probably traumatic for you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:49]:
And I felt bad that I had to ask my friend to come and her husband to come and I just started feeling bad for everyone else. And. Yeah, I don't know, I can turn off. Yeah, I'm sure there's my emotions, some. I don't know what attachment or theory this is, but.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:04]:
Well, one of the other things I remember vividly was. I think it was the one year anniversary or something like this where I had, I had kind of not forgotten about it, but like, I'm kind of through it. And your emotions on that one day you would, you would get really sad.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:22]:
Well, yeah, because, you know, with grief it's cyclical. It's not just linear. So it's like, oh, when that time comes during the anniversary of that baby, I'm like, oh, I feel a little weird, you know, And I was like, could have just got me some flowers to acknowledge that this happened. You know, I wasn't mad, but I was just kind of like, I do need something to commemorate that this happened and just acknowledge.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:46]:
I think it's interesting. I mean, a couple things of one, this is a repeating theme and we're going to keep on calling this out just to make our awareness of it. But again, if we go back, this idea of Adrienne, you're going to have a more dyadic view of life.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:00]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:00]:
Right. So you're going to be constantly thinking in terms of self and concept of others and relationship, back and forth. So it's not surprising at all. Notice how ingrained this is in us, that if there's ever a moment in which you have a right to think about yourself. I know, but we literally kind of lack the capability. Right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:19]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:20]:
So I'm gonna be the same way that you're gonna. You're gonna be.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:22]:
I was trying to crack jokes. I was lying on the floor with my midwife waiting for the Amens. I'm like, so when can I start trying again? I just went, emotion's gone.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:31]:
You're gonna be viewing. And that's life. That's fine. That's totally fine in that process. But then I think the concept of almost teaching each other, how do you love me in the midst of this grief, that we're going to grieve differently. And so this idea of, hey, I could really use flowers here, here's what we want. We want them to just know, right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:59]:
Yes. I want to know that you're thinking about me in this moment and you remember that.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:04]:
Yes. But think about. The desire for that to happen is totally justifiable. We want to be known, seen, valued, loved. We expect this other person to do this. However, what we also have to remember is there's no way for them to fully understand our perspective unless we teach them, train them, show them. Right. I think about this all the time with Ella.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:28]:
When Ella is born, you get the diagnosis of down syndrome. You're pastoring a church of almost a couple thousand, and people had no idea what to do with us. What do you say? Right. And so we had to train them how to love us. It can come across as unfair. It's not unfair. It's just life. They want to love us.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:54]:
If we don't help them, they're gonna love us poorly, which we don't want that. And so I think there is a marriage lesson here, in part, that we gotta get over the. Well, they should just know. How can they know? Have we communicated properly? I always say this about Joni and I, that if we do a good job of loving each other, well, then maybe, just maybe, if we're rocking out our last year of marriage when we're 95 at the nursing home, maybe, just maybe, one time I'll finally just know exactly what she needs, but only if she spends the next 70 years showing me and telling me what she needs from me in that moment. And yet I think so many couples just write the false assumption. If they loved me, they would know. But we see the world differently, we process it differently, we think differently.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:45]:
Yeah. And I want to say I did have moments of tears and pain and like, I wasn't a total robot.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:51]:
No.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:51]:
But it just came out in random times.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:54]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:55]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:55]:
But also just that survival. And I think that's what's so difficult here in these situations of specifically, we kind of have roles to play. So. And I don't want to read my story into Yalls by any means, but when your wife is pregnant, the husband is all about protecting the wife, because by so doing, you're protecting the child as well. Well, the wife is protecting the child at all costs. Those are similar roles, but they're a little bit different, which means we then process different. And so you didn't have time to grieve in the moment. You had to get things done.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:33]:
Right. And so your brain goes there and it's an amazing thing. It's not even denial. It's just, you're in fight or flight. You're fighting.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:25:43]:
I was.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:44]:
You're doing what you're supposed to do. And sometimes people can look at that and judge themselves and go, oh, I should have cared more. I should agree more.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:25:53]:
How cold. I definitely. I have. Like I said, I wish I would have not let you know. I wish I would have picked up the baby and instead of.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:01]:
You're doing exactly what is necessary in the moment and to give yourself permission. Yeah. To. And to look back. And even to look back with appreciation of. Oh, my goodness. I handled that really well.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:13]:
Yeah. And I wonder if Blaine had been there, like, maybe I would have just been like, a mess. I would have just been like, why? You know, But I didn't have that option.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:21]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:22]:
And then to speak too, like, so she would have found her words to communicate this and utilized her Instagram channel where there. Yes. There's a following.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:31]:
She's Drianneufeld.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:32]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:33]:
Absolutely. Plug away, Plug away.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:36]:
So now there's this conflict. How do I share? And she says, I'm just going to say it. I'm just going to talk about it. And so now we're talking about, I don't know how to grieve. And this, that. And the other thing. Her voice allowed so many women. And you can speak to the response.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:53]:
That you would have gotten.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:53]:
Yeah. I got so many messages of being like, one this. Well, I didn't know what people went through. And not all miscarriages are that intense. Although, like, it is hard to call it a miscarriage, because 20 weeks, I think, is a stillborn. And that felt more like that. So I don't even like calling it a miscarriage, because that could just be like, oh, you found out at eight weeks, and, you know. Which is still sad but less dramatic.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:19]:
Or they're like, okay, I had no idea. Or, yeah, this happened exactly to me. And I don't know how to talk about it. I don't know. Like, you just at least gave me, like, a voice or I'm not afraid to talk about it. So many. And one in four women, maybe it's higher now, go through miscarriage. So it's not like it's so common.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:38]:
And just to, like, allow people to be like. I guess that's how I grieved. Actually, it was how I pro. I just talked about it. I talked about everything. I talked about every detail. Whoever wanted to listen, I was like, yes, please, let me talk about it. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:51]:
And it's a great way to process for yourself, but you're assisting others as well. I think this is one of those areas, especially young, you don't realize this. You just. I mean, this is me, right? Maybe this is the Arkansas in me. I don't know. But I just grew up and thought, whenever you want to have a baby, everybody has a baby. It's not that big of a deal. Every now and then, there's a situation that goes on.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:12]:
I had no idea how difficult it is for people to get pregnant. I had no idea, obviously, the different tragedies and diagnoses that can come around, all those things. How many people are out there that can't get pregnant? I thought they were just choosing not to have kids. It's almost like this is your introduction to adulthood, oh, my gosh, Very quickly.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:32]:
And you can't grieve or sympathize with someone who's lost a child until you've been through it. Like, I just had no idea. Like, I don't know what to say to you. I don't know how to help you. I'm sad for you, but, like, can't you just go try again? You know? Like, those are, like, the naive thoughts you have. Oh, you already have kids, girl, you'll be. But it's so much more than just. It's just so much.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:57]:
And then being already at 15 weeks, you're like, am I gonna lose my hair? I'm already, like, 10 pounds heavier or whatever. There's just so many things that inside a woman's brain after that go through your head. And I think for women just to be like, yeah, okay, so I'm not crazy that I'm thinking all this, that I'm feeling all this.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:18]:
And I think to give space too, for people who are going to grieve differently and look at it differently.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:22]:
Right Y.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:23]:
So Jenny had a miscarriage. So after Ella was born with down syndrome, then we're going to have another child. You don't know if you're going to have another child or not because we're in all the statistics are. So we're going to have one. And sure enough, she has a miscarriage. And it's interesting, her interpretation, our interpretation of that was impacted and influenced by Ella's birth. And then all the things we saw around of things that could go wrong. And.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:50]:
And so Jenny really had a less traumatic experience with that and much more of a perspective of, okay, these are processes that God has put in place to protect life and all of us. And so that was her mindset to such an extent that when we're pastoring in Arkansas and kind of our friends are of that age, when we would have a friend that would have a miscarriage, I wouldn't necessarily immediately connect them with Jenny because our perspective was a little bit different than maybe what their perspective would be. Neither one are right or wrong, but you have to kind of recognize the space that is there. And it takes some maturity to see that people are going to have different perspectives on these things and they're going to grieve now in different ways. I don't know about you, Blaine, but for me as a husband, it was just so hard for me to understand. I know she's experiencing something I'm not experiencing. We're sharing it, but in a different way. In a radically different way.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:53]:
And so I think for couples, and Jenny did a great job with this, but for couples just to have that understanding of I'm with you, but you're also going through something. We are going through something together. You're also going through something that is uniquely yours that I can never comprehend or understand. And to give space for that. And also I think within that is to in yalls situation. How did y'all give the ability to grieve the fact that. Blaine, you're not here, but that's not your fault. So I have a right to be sad and frustrated that you weren't here.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:33]:
But whenever I feel that. I'm not blaming you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:35]:
No. Because resentment can Easily settle in that, like, you have no idea what I went through, but I don't know. I don't know. I think we just talked. I think we just shared what we were feeling and we just talked.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:50]:
Yeah. I remember being fairly quiet, like, and listening maybe for the first time in my life.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:56]:
Right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:56]:
It was just like, I left house, everything was good. I come back, she's sitting on the couch. She had just kind of been given liquids and stuff. So it's.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:05]:
Oh, my face was just. I didn't look like myself. Cause all the fluids. I had a iron transfusion and everything. And actually the hardest part was telling our kids, like, our four year old, like, oh, you know, I mean, that part sucked a lot.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:19]:
It did. Yeah. And I mean, for their. So their memories of this would be. A stranger was in dad's bed or.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:28]:
Whatever, a family friend, but not someone you would expect to wake up to.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:31]:
And be like, you just said good night.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:33]:
I was trying to prom.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:34]:
Yeah, Sorry, Sorry. So our husband's friend, like, stayed over the night.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:38]:
Oh, then they woke up.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:39]:
Our husband's friend.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:41]:
Sorry. My friend's husband stayed the night.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:45]:
I got you. I'm following you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:46]:
We're all friends.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:46]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:47]:
But it traumatized our son a little bit to wake up in the morning and be like, where's my mom and why are you here? And that carried on with some anxiety we had to work through. And I still think we have to work through that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:57]:
Absolutely. But, yeah. And so for me to leave and then come back to that, it was. And I had my little moment with, I think, this vision or so. It was almost like, not that I had closure by the time I got home, but I was processing this.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:12]:
Like, you had five hours to process quickly.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:15]:
Like, you know, I was so sad, but I'm like, it's gonna be okay. Adrienne is good. Therefore, I'm good. Right. I started to be much more appreciative of my children, that was for sure. And just like, oh, my gosh, I'm so thankful that you are here healthy and that sort of thing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:33]:
We also. There was this family camp we got invited to, like, prior to all this. But it was like a couple days after this happened, we're like, do we go? Like, should we?
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:43]:
Yeah, that was.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:43]:
It was like, maybe like two days after. Like, do we go? Is that wise? And we were like, actually, yeah, let's go, let's go. Like, be in nature. Be by the water. And I think that was really healing for our family. And just like, I know Mark and Aaron had Invited us and they were there and we had support. They knew what we were going through. Although it's weird when people are like, how many kids do you have? I'm like two, but kind of three.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:06]:
I don't know. It was awkward, but also very healing just to be with people and not have any responsibilities. I don't know.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:15]:
But, yeah, everybody's situation is different. But I even in that process, now I remember, like, if you want to go, we can go. We don't have to go. It was like your world. I am just here.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:25]:
He was just super supportive here to just say, I know I don't really.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:28]:
Because I didn't know what to do.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:30]:
Like, neither did I.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:31]:
How long do we talk about this? Do we keep talking about it? You know, what do you need? Like, I don't know. And so, yeah, I just remember taking the kids for walks and different things like that to give her space. But then we ended up going because we almost wanted the distraction away from it and ended up being pretty good. Right? I don't even remember it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:51]:
Yeah, it was throwing that out there.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:53]:
I think one thing, one thing that struck me is so, you know, same thing, going for a dnc and then like, I had to run to Walmart for something. Who knows, right? Arkansas, everybody goes to Walmart for something and you walk in and like, the world's still operating, Your family's going through this, and the world's still operating. I think one of the great takeaways for me was never underestimate the amount of pain in Walmart that people, they have to go get things, they have to take care of things. But yet how many people in that store at any given moment of they're actually running home after the chemo treatment, They've just lost the baby, they just had the fight in the marriage. The kid needs lunch, and yet they're grieving this traumatic thing, but they still got to get the kid lunch. And I think to just have this tremendous compassion of a place like Walmart, of what's going on inside that store and to recognize this is a place full of pain now, be empathetic toward people when it's so easy, whenever you're not going through something, to miss the sorrow that's all around you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:01]:
Absolutely. And one thing now that as you speak, that I remember how I was living two worlds. I was living my hockey coach and manager world and the church world. And we had been starting to work at villages at the same time because it was Covid the response that we got from church Community. Can we do a meal training? What do you guys need? Let's pray for you. All these things.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:21]:
It was like Mark and Aaron were at our house the night.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:23]:
You get it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:23]:
Like, you get it. You're there for us. My hockey world. Hey, bro. Yeah. How are you guys doing? Oh, wow. We lost the baby. Oh, okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:31]:
So what do we got to do today at work? Like, whoa. I was, like, almost disappointed because I thought this was a community of people. So then I started to see, like, the value of getting yourself involved in a community that will walk you through some of these things is crucial.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:49]:
I think our community helped us so much just to heal and to be there for us.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:54]:
And the concept of churches. And not all churches are good at this, and we got to admit that. However, in general, a church should be a place that is more comfortable with the pains and the sorrows and the brokenness of life and a willingness to hold that space. Whereas it wouldn't be shocking if outside organizations may not know how to handle that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:16]:
Right, right.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:17]:
And so live in much more denial of. Okay, well, good luck. We'll see you when you get back at work. We're not going to jump in?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:24]:
No, they are friends, and they just grieved with us. And my girlfriends just came over and started cleaning my house. Didn't even ask. That was, like, the biggest gift. They were just started by doing my laundry, doing my dishes. And I think if anyone's ever wondering what you can do, I. If you're close enough to walk into someone's home and just start helping any way you can is great. And I know maybe people want space, but I didn't want to be alone.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:49]:
So feel it out.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:51]:
Oh, absolutely. I just think the clear communication between. Again, between not only couples, but then also friend groups. You have to be willing to communicate. And this goes back to a previous episode. So let's go back into a little bit of attachment. Right. So avoid it.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:07]:
You could be tempted to avoid any of the pain, any of the sorrow, so you could avoid your own. You could also avoid others and just unintentionally run from it and not even recognizing that you are running from it. If you're anxious, if you're not careful, you can actually begin to hold back part of your pain for fear of, oh, I don't want to be that person that's going to be too demanding for others. No. What is a secure approach here? A secure approach is to clearly communicate. Here's the pain I'm feeling. Here's how you can help. Here's what you could do.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:39]:
And to have no hesitation in stating your needs and what's going on, and then to take action if you're somebody else. I mean, so I remember we lived on two and a half acres at that time. I remember coming home and somebody had mowed our yard. That's like four hours worth of work.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:56]:
Those things are huge.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:57]:
And I don't know who did it. I have guesses of who did it, but just the gift to pull in your scene. You're loved here. This thing has been taken off your plate that you don't have to worry about.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:08]:
I think that's the best thing you can do. And pray for people, obviously.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:12]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:13]:
So in looking back, have you ever thought about what would it have looked like if the other didn't suffer? Well, like, how could that situation have gone in a much different direction as far as Yalls relationship? Because that's a traumatic, traumatic experience in unusual circumstances where you're not together, which is ripe now for resentment and blame and confusion and guilt and shame and all those things that if you don't know how to process a situation like this literally can end your marriage. I talk about in Friends, Partners and Lovers. I talk about two different couples. Each were the wives got diagnosed with cancer. One where the husband did exactly what you would hope that he would do. So much so that two years later, at the funeral, I took a moment and I said, hey, I recognize that we're here to recognize Melinda and her life, and we want to honor that in every way. But I want to take a moment to recognize Rodney and his love and his compassion, his grace and how he walked alongside of her. And here's what struck me.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:21]:
It's because around the same time, another couple, she got diagnosed with cancer. He left.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:30]:
No, he left.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:33]:
The relationship wasn't strong to begin with, and he was probably already kind of edging out the door. And sometimes something like this happens and it wakes them up and they get to work. But in this case, oh, my gosh.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:47]:
It was too much.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:47]:
He's out, which people forget. Let those things happen. And have you ever thought about what this could have been like if you were holding somebody else's hand?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:00]:
No, I never have because Blaine just let me grieve the way I needed to grieve. He didn't pressure me. He didn't rush me. He would be like, why are you sad again? You know, like, he was there to listen. But I think if he would have come home and been like, well, that sucks. Hey, and then moved on with life, I would have felt totally unseen, totally unheard. Like, this is gonna be a problem. Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:26]:
It would have caused a huge wedge in our marriage.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:28]:
But, yeah, I can't imagine it otherwise. But I also can only now see how fruitful the experience was for ar marriage, but also influence to other people. So I'm like, I'm glad that it happened, question mark.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:43]:
You know, we're not happy it happened, but we are gonna take this situation and let God use it for good. Like, we're. We don't. We're not defined by grief. We're not defined. Like, I'm not like the miscarriage person. That's not what I want to be. But we do want to share it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:58]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:58]:
And we want to let God use it if he wants to.
Blaine Neufeld [00:42:00]:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:42:01]:
That didn't really answer your question.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:02]:
Well, but here's what I love about that, is this. Notice two couples can walk through the same equally bad scenarios.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:42:10]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:11]:
And whenever you have a strong connection, even bad scenarios make you stronger. When you have a bad connection, even good scenarios can make you worse, actually. And so to me, it's another one of those reasons that we want to make sure that we're doing the work we're supposed to be doing on our relationships. Because here's what we can guarantee. Suffering is coming in some way or in some form. It's not like you'll get a card now and say, oh, nope, we're good.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:42:40]:
We did it.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:40]:
We've had our tough moment.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:42:41]:
Well, what is funny is, like, I always had this thing in the back of my head. I was like, it's coming. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. And on that moment, when my water broke, I was like, this is it. Here's my suffering. It's starting. And I was very aware of that. But it's going to happen again.
Blaine Neufeld [00:42:58]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:42:59]:
You know something.
Blaine Neufeld [00:42:59]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:00]:
Which sucks.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:01]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:02]:
My question is, and maybe I don't know if we got time, but at the same time, could be an answer, could be not. How do you find the person or is. You know what I'm saying? This is the question. But at the same time, is it, I found a great person. Now let's put the work in to develop it so we're prepared. It's both. Yeah. Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:20]:
It's both. So if you're dating, you really want to be able to look beyond just the surface issues of how do they look? What's the money, what's the career, what's the plans? Look beyond that and begin to look at what is the heart? I say it all the time. People will say, well, as long as my child marries a Christian. And I'm like, nope, I got a higher bar than that. Oh yeah, I got a higher bar than that. I want my kids to marry somebody who's good. Not great. I'm not saying that.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:54]:
Not great, right? But good. A person whose heart is toward the hurting, the outcast, the vulnerable, a person whose heart can lean into pain and sorrow, can deal with complexities. And seriously, there is a level of health that a person should have with their own emotions and the emotions of others to recognize this is a guaranteed part of life. And so I want to navigate. I do not have to be married to somebody specifically. I get to choose who I marry. Nobody's forced upon me. And so I can love another person and appreciate who they are and then still at the same time go, I'm not marrying that person.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:34]:
Because when the hardship comes, I know they're not gonna handle it well.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:38]:
But like, how do you know that? How do you. What if you're dating for six months? Like, do you need. How do you suss that out?
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:45]:
I'm thinking about my 20 year old self. I'm not asking a mature question because I'm not mature.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:49]:
I wasn't mature. I had to learn actually in the moment how to grieve. Like, I wasn't good at it before then.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:55]:
No doubt. Which is why the answer is both. There is a development part of that process of look, I mean, because let's face it, especially if you get married young, you get tossed into adulthood very quickly and you gotta figure it out. So hopefully you've chosen somebody who, you know, we will figure things out. So one aspect within all of that is does this person have the ability to grow, to mature, to change, to reckon, to look beyond themselves, all those kind of things. But there is a question, this is one thing I'm trying to help other people with in dating is begin to look at how do they deal when life doesn't go their way, right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:45:30]:
Like a stress at work or like.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:32]:
Can they handle it if the meal they ordered comes to the table and it's wrong and they flip out and they can't process it, can't handle it. They take it out on the waitress.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:45:45]:
Red flag.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:45]:
Run. Yeah, run. This is why I love it when something goes a little bit wrong on the wedding day.
Blaine Neufeld [00:45:51]:
That's good.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:52]:
I just want to see how they handle it, right? Because if it. Man, you make all these plans and it rains, absolutely grieve that be sorrowful over that. But if that defines the day more than the fact that you're about to get married to this person of your dreams, you shouldn't get married. Like, that's not the person you want to be married to. If they are flipping out over things because life is going to continually not go your way. And if, if you're dating somebody who can't handle that, I mean, think about it. This is. Maybe this is too petty.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:22]:
But if the traffic jam occurs and they just change, well, how are they going to treat you whenever you do something that negatively impacts their lives?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:46:35]:
That is good. If you are young and dating, please take this advice.
Blaine Neufeld [00:46:38]:
Well, I'm wondering even about marriage, premarital. And these couples are coming and asking, hey, talk and ask questions. We almost want to put them in a scenario.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:46:48]:
Oh, that's a good idea.
Blaine Neufeld [00:46:50]:
Like, go for dinner with him, but come show up late. I don't know, like, what the scenario is.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:46:54]:
We tell them to get their order wrong.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:56]:
Yes, that's exactly right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:46:57]:
Could you please just make his drink, like, completely wrong.
Blaine Neufeld [00:47:00]:
Because it's, it's. Everything is rosy colored glasses right now. This is amazing. We're going to do this. We're going to have these dreams and then boom, life.
Kevin Thompson [00:47:09]:
Now, notice what I'm not saying is you want somebody stoic or who lives in denial, who just pretends like everything's fine. I want somebody who can experience disappointment, who can communicate their frustration, all those things, but who can get it in perspective of a bigger picture. What y'all did is y'all took this very traumatic experience and you lived it and grieved it. But in the interpretation of a larger story, that there is a God, his sovereign concern and care of where we're going, what scares me is when somebody either A, doesn't have the maturity to admit the grief and the sorrow, or B, is now defined by it. It really is denial or despair. We have to live somewhere between denial and despair and the real feeling of what's going on.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:47:59]:
And can I just say that any miscarriage at any week is so sad.
Kevin Thompson [00:48:05]:
It's real.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:48:06]:
And I don't want to say. I don't know if I made it sound like no, but it is. It's hard no matter what. Doesn't matter if you've known for a week or if you've known for 10 or 20. It's hard. It's just plain hard and sad.
Kevin Thompson [00:48:19]:
I have walked. Obviously, we have our own experience, but I've walked with families at almost every stage. The delivery, that we were going to the hospital thinking everything was great, and for nine months, everything had been great, and there's no breath. And all along the way. And the common theme in all of that is a parent's love is a powerful force. And we can't get into this game of which grief is worse.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:48:52]:
No, exactly.
Kevin Thompson [00:48:53]:
Whatever your experience is, that is a grief to you, and that's very real. And grief is an aspect of life. Again, it's not everything. It doesn't define who y'all are, but it is very much a part of that experience.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:49:07]:
It's part of our story. Exactly.
Kevin Thompson [00:49:08]:
Which is why we have to have conversations about it. And if you and I want to change the odds of marriage, we have to change the way that we handle grief. And to do so, choose very wisely who's holding your hand in the good times, because that's the same hand that will hold you in the tough times. Until next time. Don't forget, marriage and family were never meant to be a game of chance. Let's change the odds and love each other well.