Blaine Neufeld [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to Change the Odds Podcast, and again we have the privilege, Adrian and I, interviewing someone, and we're very excited about this. Uh, sadly Kevin is not here, but sadly Eric is not here, your, your husband. But this is the one and only Barb Wilson.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:15]:
Yes, yes, great to be here.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:17]:
Smattering of applause. Barb, you've been on this show and those podcasts many times. I love it, and I'm sure the guests know you, but I will, uh read a little something. You are, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you are a relationship coach, speaker for many years where you have helped couples deepen their connection through every stage of life. You're passionate about healthy intimacy, and you're a fantastic guide for couples navigating life transitions.
Barb Wilson [00:00:45]:
Did you write that?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:46]:
I did.
Barb Wilson [00:00:46]:
Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:47]:
With some help, I'm guessing, from chat.
Barb Wilson [00:00:50]:
However, I am a clinical psychologist. Apologist, you know.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:54]:
So that was kind of a big one. You should have said—
Barb Wilson [00:00:58]:
maybe we should have led with that one.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:00]:
We wanted you to say it. We are so excited. I am so excited today to talk about what we're going to talk about.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:07]:
Um, get into it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:08]:
Okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:09]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:09]:
Okay. We— you recently did a little course, or what would you call it? Workshop?
Barb Wilson [00:01:14]:
Yeah, like a webinar for marriages.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:17]:
Oh, for marriages. Um, with Gotman on perimenopause. It is a hot topic right now among the women.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:27]:
I want to tell you, I know nothing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:29]:
Yeah, we know.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:30]:
I grew up with 4— 3 brothers, 4 boys in the house. I was not privy to any of this information as current as, uh, yesterday when—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:38]:
yeah, after we've been married for 15 years, I go— this is a— this is TMI, but I'm gonna do it anyways. I was like, I'm getting my period like right now. And he goes— and we were about to go on stage for a church thing— and he goes, well, can't you just like hold it in? I was like, oh, here I am. Okay, lots to learn still.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:56]:
Just to my education on this, but clearly this is a hot topic and something that women— from what kind of ages are we, are we discussing here today? What?
Barb Wilson [00:02:06]:
Yeah, so it could start as early as like in your mid-40s for some people, like if you've had, let's say, a hysterectomy, um, you can actually go into it even a little bit earlier. But typically, if—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:17]:
Do you know what a hysterectomy is?
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:18]:
No, but we can move on from that if you'd like.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:21]:
It's a surgery where you remove— is it your uterus?
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:24]:
Okay. Wow. The listener today is just getting right into it.
Barb Wilson [00:02:27]:
Well, we're talking about a medical thing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:30]:
Yes. Okay. I'm very comfortable.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:33]:
You're not sweating at all.
Barb Wilson [00:02:34]:
Okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:35]:
Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:36]:
So go on. Yes.
Barb Wilson [00:02:40]:
Usually about around 40, 45 to late 40s. It can start sometimes. This whole period can last between 45 and even 55. So perimenopause can start even 5 or 6 years before you actually go through menopause. So it's the beginning, peri, the beginning of the symptoms.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:03]:
We were looking up the terms. We were like, menopause. Ceases the menstruation. So peri is the beginning.
Barb Wilson [00:03:11]:
Okay, so peri is like before the menopause. So there's some things that start to kind of lead up to that, and it has to do with your menstrual strike, your cycle. You start to have more irregular cycles is kind of the first— one of the first symptoms that you start to experience, which is a drop in estrogen and progesterone, all of those. Natural hormones.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:34]:
Okay. And so as we kind of think through this episode in this interview, what are— one of our goals would be is to essentially normalize this conversation, because it sounds as if there is almost not an epidemic. I don't know what the, you know, the term would be when it becomes this severe, but a lot of women might be getting divorced, and this might be one of the reasons as to why. Is that correct?
Barb Wilson [00:03:59]:
Well, it can be. We're not going to generalize that, of course, but perimenopause, when you start to feel a lot of these symptoms. So, for example, you can start to gain some weight, especially around the middle. You have headaches, you start having sleep problems. That's the hot flashes, the night sweats. You know, mood swings, like very extreme, 0 to 60, where you get irritated about a multitude of things that before wouldn't have bothered you. You can feel more depressed, you know, just experience some anxiety. So a whole bunch of— and body changes, aches and pains.
Barb Wilson [00:04:44]:
So you start having all of these things that maybe you didn't have before, and it can be kind of confusing. And so that can create obviously some problems in a marriage. Not that everyone that goes through perimenopause is.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:58]:
Yeah, no, we don't need to put that fear into people. But I am scared because you're afraid, fearful of the next 20 years. Okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:09]:
Because I've seen how it goes on certain days. It's pretty intense.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:13]:
I don't know. I'm not in perimenopause, but on my cycle, I feel crazy some days. Like, there's like 2 or 3 days where I feel like not myself, and, and everything feels explosive inside of me.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:28]:
Yeah, you know, and I'm excited so that— because I start to— I'm being more educated as time goes on about her body and herself and, you know, our identity and all these things. But this is one of those things that the more I can have a good handle on as to what's going on And Kevin talks a lot about secure attachments, which would be important, I'm sure, in this season of life. But at the same time, I want to know some of these details, some of these awareness pieces, some of these strategies as to kind of how to navigate or support someone that's probably going through that.
Barb Wilson [00:06:02]:
So, well, I think, you know, when it comes to a lot of conflict during— in a marriage, you know, during perimenopause, it really more— if there has been other things in the marriage, it kind of accentuates or magnifies problems that were already there. If there is a fairly healthy relationship, it's going to be like, what's happening to you right now? Why are you being mad at me all the time? So you think of perimenopause where that feeling kind of is there more often than not. Not like all the time, but it comes more. It feels like PMS just never went away for a while.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:39]:
Right. Great. Can't wait.
Barb Wilson [00:06:43]:
But, like, not all the time. Obviously, I went through it. I'm past menopause stage.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:50]:
Barely. You had a birthday yesterday.
Barb Wilson [00:06:51]:
Yes, I did.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:52]:
Happy birthday. You look amazing.
Barb Wilson [00:06:54]:
Well, thank you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:55]:
How was it, by the way? Can we interact? How was the birthday?
Barb Wilson [00:06:57]:
You know, it was a really fun day. My one son from Seattle was down, and then my other son showed up who lives locally. And then we all went out for breakfast. And then my daughter-in-law and my granddaughter were there. So that was a fun day. Then I went to my grandma group. I'm a grandma, and they kind of sang for me. And then I worked, and then I had my Bible study, and they all brought me flowers.
Barb Wilson [00:07:18]:
So it was— and I went home, and my husband was so kind. So, um, I had a wonderful day.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:23]:
That's amazing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:24]:
And the, uh, the caveat to this is that it's Eric's birthday 5 days later as well. So do you feel like you have enough focus on you, or does he try to bring his attention to the party?
Barb Wilson [00:07:34]:
I think I kind of steal the show.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:35]:
You steal the show?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:37]:
Birthday week trumps his. Yeah, that's fine.
Barb Wilson [00:07:39]:
Yeah, no, it's, it's good.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:41]:
Yeah, it's servant heart.
Barb Wilson [00:07:43]:
He does. He makes sure I feel very special.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:47]:
Perimenopause was a breeze for these two.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:50]:
They're the experts. Really.
Barb Wilson [00:07:51]:
But, you know, also the problem is, I remember when— because it might not— one symptom may not be a big challenge, but then when they start to add up, stack up, and sometimes you can kind of deal with it with some supplements. But then at some point, like, for me, I did go on the estrogen patch.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:11]:
Okay.
Barb Wilson [00:08:12]:
And, um, and that was because I was starting to put my watch in the freezer, you know, like I was—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:17]:
oh really?
Barb Wilson [00:08:17]:
You know, I'd be, I'd be on the phone and I'd be forgetting, like, I'd be listening, somebody would be talking to me and I would be thinking, I have no idea what they're saying. And then I realized my brain is in a complete fog.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:31]:
No way.
Barb Wilson [00:08:31]:
Yeah, it was really strange.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:33]:
And this is all due to hormonal changes, right? Like, that's what's causing all these Symptoms.
Barb Wilson [00:08:38]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:38]:
Oh my God.
Barb Wilson [00:08:39]:
So you have this gradual reduction. And of course, when you're in menopause, the estrogen and progesterone really take a huge bigger dive. But yeah, so this slow decline in these hormones that just make your body work, right? And without those, they don't work so well. That's when I went on the patch, and I was only— I only had to be on it a couple of years, but it was transformative, and I really encourage it. Now, you know, doctors have, you know, for quite a few couple decades been, have been concerned about that, but new research has shown that the hormonal replacement is, you know, there's been some correlation with, you know, breast cancer, but they're kind of, you know, reversing that. And saying that it is really safe to have some hormone replacement during that time. And I, I'm really encouraging it. You know, like, I have, I have some women in my office right now, my practice, you know, going through perimenopause, and it's causing some conflict in their relationship.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:49]:
Interesting.
Barb Wilson [00:09:49]:
Because they're saying now, all right, you know, I've put up with this or this thing. I haven't felt like I've had a voice. I've always kind of given in. I've run the house, I've done everything, and now my kids are teenagers, and I don't want to keep— I don't want this anymore. I don't want to live the next 20 years like this. I want to be able to go out and do things I want to do and have a voice. But then the guys feel a little blindsided, right? Like, okay, you don't want to do laundry anymore, or you don't want to cook anymore.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:18]:
Don't you love to clean?
Barb Wilson [00:10:20]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:20]:
Done it for 30 years.
Barb Wilson [00:10:23]:
And like, why are you getting angry at me for that?
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:26]:
Wow.
Barb Wilson [00:10:27]:
So sometimes I'll have the husbands coming in, can you make my wife go to the doctor and get some?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:32]:
Right. I was going to ask, like, what's— how— if a husband is like noticing his wife's changing and maybe she doesn't, is it— could it be like that? The wife doesn't really see it, but the husband clearly could? Well, or they both kind of—
Barb Wilson [00:10:46]:
the wife is maybe feeling some, you know, physical changes, but may not realize her, how she's showing up, you know, with irritability.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:56]:
Yeah.
Barb Wilson [00:10:56]:
Maybe becoming more critical and, you know, more demanding. So yeah, the husband might notice that first as opposed to the physical changes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:07]:
Right. And then what could he do? Like, like you said, like, can you make her go to the doctor? Like, how could he even suggest to her, like, there's things we can do? Like, you know what I mean?
Barb Wilson [00:11:17]:
I know I was, I was laughing because I was sitting with a couple, and so she's saying, all of a sudden I'm just so irritated by every little thing. And the husband's sitting next to her, afraid to say anything, going, mm-hmm.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:30]:
He's like, yeah, she is.
Barb Wilson [00:11:31]:
Like, she's become scary. He doesn't know what to say. He's afraid to say anything.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:37]:
Yeah, I should call him. I can relate. No.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:40]:
Oh my gosh, I'm still like super young.
Barb Wilson [00:11:46]:
You are not anywhere near that age.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:48]:
Well, it's 40, early 40s.
Barb Wilson [00:11:50]:
It can start mid to late.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:52]:
Okay. I got a little bit of time.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:54]:
You got a little bit of time. You're looking great.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:55]:
Oh, thanks.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:56]:
Yeah, you bet.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:57]:
Okay. This must impact people's sex life then.
Barb Wilson [00:12:00]:
Oh, yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:01]:
Big time.
Barb Wilson [00:12:01]:
Yes. Well, that's one of the symptoms. Your libido declines. And even with just your body changes, you don't feel as comfortable in your body. You might not feel as attractive. Um, but then also you've got like, you know, you get these hot flashes and then it's like you feel like you're on fire. Literally. Wow.
Barb Wilson [00:12:21]:
It's like, I've heard Leanne comes on so quick.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:23]:
Leanne Morgan, she's a comedian that I really like.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:26]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:26]:
She, she has this whole bit about like, starts in the back of your neck and works its way and it's like there's a furnace inside of you. Oh, it's really funny. But it sounds terrible.
Barb Wilson [00:12:35]:
It's like immediately you're on fire and like, like your whole body feels wet.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:39]:
Great.
Barb Wilson [00:12:40]:
So, like, you don't want anybody touching your body.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:42]:
Yeah. So don't touch me.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:43]:
Yeah.
Barb Wilson [00:12:44]:
And then sometimes, like, even during sexual intimacy, that you can get a hot flash and it's like, oh no, really?
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:51]:
Yeah, he's there thinking, this is great.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:54]:
Wow. Oh gosh, that sounds terrible.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:58]:
Well, I know, I know.
Barb Wilson [00:12:59]:
I'm sorry, I'm really making it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:00]:
No, this is, you know, it lasts for, you know, only 10 years.
Barb Wilson [00:13:05]:
You know, like, the worst part is, is shorter, you know, the perimenopause building up, you know, it's gradual. You kind of start to learn to deal with it, right? But then when it gets like, oh, I realize that I am no longer in control of what is happening in my brain, right?
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:23]:
One of the questions, and it kind of parlays to what Adrian was saying, I had was, what would a woman in this stage, or women, want their husbands to know so that, you know, we can kind of be proactive in thinking and make normalizing conversation for them to have so that the husbands can understand what they should know.
Barb Wilson [00:13:43]:
Yeah, what would they want them— I, you know, I guess, you know, being able to talk about it. And I, I think to your point, and to your point, it can kind of blindside people because, you know, you're 45, 46, 47 and, you know, you're just rolling along in life, and then all of a sudden, why do you start feeling all these changes? So I know even when I'm starting to— I feel something, I'm, I'm trying to figure out what am I doing that I should, shouldn't be doing, or what should I be doing that I'm not doing. I should be exercising more, right? So we try to, like, we try to, you know, self-diagnose, troubleshooting, right? So we're trying to troubleshoot. So sometimes that can happen where husbands have some very helpful advice that's not helpful. Well, you probably just need to get more Oh, great. Why don't you try getting more sleep?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:31]:
And sleep is also gets harder with age, right?
Barb Wilson [00:14:36]:
Sure. Well, you have to get up and go to the bathroom more, and it does affect kind of the quality of sleep. So women feel more tired. So sometimes husband's suggestions aren't super helpful.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:50]:
Good to know. Noted.
Barb Wilson [00:14:51]:
Because men like to fix things.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:54]:
Yes, they do.
Barb Wilson [00:14:55]:
And they do it out of the love of their wives.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:57]:
Yes, we love you guys.
Barb Wilson [00:14:57]:
And they really just want life to go back to normal. And unfortunately, none of those actions are going to help.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:07]:
Right.
Barb Wilson [00:15:08]:
I have husbands in my office going, you know, just— they want their wives to go to the doctor. And so then that just makes their wives dig their heels in and go, right, I'm not going to— because they're thinking, you just want to have more sex. 'And so I'm digging my heels in on this.' Now, that's probably a couple that— they're in my office, so you know that they've already had some problems, right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:29]:
Right.
Barb Wilson [00:15:30]:
Generally, you know, somebody who's saying, 'Well, could be menopause or perimenopause, why don't you go and check it out?' So guys should probably be aware of the season.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:41]:
Like, I'm thankful that this is coming up for me because in 10 years as things develop, and I should be acutely aware of where my wife is at in her behaviors, I can simply give a little bit of space? Or is it okay to kind of name the season, or is that offensive? Or what, what is— like, I don't want— I don't know, you know, because it sounds as if the age range can vary. And again, as a guy, I don't want to be like, oh, you must be going through this, and I'm like 38. And you don't want to use it as an excuse either for emotional behavior if it isn't the case. But what would you say?
Barb Wilson [00:16:21]:
Yeah, I think, um, I was just thinking like, because even, you know, during a monthly cycle, PMS, right? And then when husbands go, oh, it must be your time of the month, and that always feels a little bit condescending, like you can't control yourself. And it usually is associated with some emotional reaction. And women, I think, already feel you know, that we get, um, dismissed a little bit because of our emotional and, um, reactions. And, and then because it's something that we can't really control, that it's not helpful to say, oh, it must be very good.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:58]:
Good, good.
Barb Wilson [00:16:59]:
Go fix yourself. Um, go fix yourself. But I, I think it's hard for the husbands, you know, to be able to— how do they, how do they help? Definitely not the time to bring it up is when your wife is having a bit of a meltdown and saying, it's probably perimenopause and I'm just gonna leave and let you carry on. But, you know, in a healthy relationship, when it's not during that time but another time when, you know, you can, you know, can rationally talk about it, you know, I wonder what's going on. I have husbands that send their wives videos on parenting advice. Oh my, that's not helpful.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:40]:
Not helpful. Okay, not helpful.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:42]:
Not helpful. And they would be trying— go ahead, go ahead.
Barb Wilson [00:17:45]:
Again, if it was a healthy relationship, that could be received differently.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:48]:
But yeah, that is—
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:52]:
and so these guys would be like saying, this is what I'm dealing with, or what would be—
Barb Wilson [00:17:56]:
this is your problem and this is what you can do to fix it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:00]:
Oh, wow.
Barb Wilson [00:18:00]:
Right. But Yeah, I mean, it's not pleasant, right? If your wife is all of a sudden changed and she's this seemingly irrational, more irritable person who gets upset about a lot of things. And not— I wish— you know, there's some outliers. Not everyone experiences it the same way. These are just, you know, some common symptoms that can happen, but The nice thing is that they don't always necessarily all happen at the same time. Okay. Right. So you can have some overlap.
Barb Wilson [00:18:34]:
For me, it kind of progressed where I really noticed it when, like I said, when I had this whole huge brain fog where, right, I was like forgetting things. I felt like I was getting— what, I'm getting dementia? Like, you know. So that's where it can be confusing because it can be a gradual thing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:50]:
And I think like in the past a lot of doctors made women feel like, oh, this is just— you're tired. Like, you know, like what husbands say, you're tired. Or there wasn't like a lot of support. Or it's like a newer concept, right?
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:03]:
That's being talked about a little bit.
Barb Wilson [00:19:06]:
Everything's being talked about more now, right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:08]:
Like, maybe people are just talking about it finally.
Barb Wilson [00:19:10]:
Oh yeah, I mean, women have gone through perimenopause forever.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:13]:
I know, but maybe there weren't words to it.
Barb Wilson [00:19:16]:
Or like, as long as— well, I'm I'm getting up there and it's been around as long as I've been.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:21]:
It just feels like it's a much bigger topic now. But like you said, people are just—
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:25]:
We're growing older and we're becoming aware of it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:27]:
No, I think it's like—
Barb Wilson [00:19:29]:
Well, I just think that everything is being more openly talked about.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:33]:
Sure.
Barb Wilson [00:19:33]:
We're talking about sex, right? I mean, we were talking about sex last night in a Bible study. All right. I mean, sweet. It's just—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:40]:
Blaine's like, I want to go to Bible study.
Barb Wilson [00:19:41]:
40 years ago, these were all taboo topics.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:45]:
That's true. That's true.
Barb Wilson [00:19:46]:
So women, had to just deal with it privately.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:50]:
I guess that's what I'm saying. They didn't feel supported in, in this season of life. But now there are, like, like you said, hormone patches and, um, things that they can offer.
Barb Wilson [00:20:02]:
And, and, you know, supplemental things. You can go to the health food store, there's some great— I can't think of the name of it now, but there is like a, a good supplemental. Like, let's say for some example, someone who has had cancer they might be a little bit more nervous to go on, you know, the estrogen, prescribed estrogen patch. And also there's cream as well, vaginal cream that can help with some of the symptoms, which is helpful, which has kind of been scary for women to use again because of the cancer scare. But the recent research is really reversing that and it's very safe. So now I'm trying to convince some of the women in my office, like, this is okay. It's going to make your life better. You're going to feel better.
Barb Wilson [00:20:46]:
Imagine if you just start having two hormones in your body that have been there the whole time and all of a sudden they're gone. They're gradually going away. But by menopause, a lot of it's gone. That's why a lot of women do go on— they call it bioidentical hormones, where they go to like a functional doctor and they get their hormones measured and then It's like a cream that kind of replaces that. And women tell me they feel great being able to— some of that vitality and energy and because your body can feel dry and just a lot of uncomfortable, itchy. It's just uncomfortable.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:31]:
Yeah. So those that are continuing listening, it's been a pretty depressing episode to this point. There has to be hope. My kind of thought and question is, twofold. We can, you know, bring hope to the level of intimacy that we could find. But maybe more so, a question to discuss would be, how can you grow closer as a couple through this season of life? Because I'm sure there's a hopeful look outward at this. Let's, you know, look outward.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:59]:
Outward look.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:00]:
Outward look.
Barb Wilson [00:22:01]:
There you go. On this, we're making— we're making a fight.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:04]:
I don't know why I'm asking you the questions.
Barb Wilson [00:22:05]:
Freaking out right now.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:06]:
Yeah, you're really taking charge. I like it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:09]:
I am very curious too. Yeah, I'm very curious.
Barb Wilson [00:22:12]:
Of course there's hope.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:14]:
I'm still sitting here.
Barb Wilson [00:22:14]:
I'm happily married 45 years this year. We still have a very active sex life.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:19]:
Great.
Barb Wilson [00:22:19]:
We've been through menopause. I think it was when you have healthy communication, of course, a good friendship and healthy communication, being able to talk about it in a non-condescending way. The wife being willing, you know, to get the help that she needs, you know, seeing a doctor, feeling comfortable, being able to get, you know, do what she needs to do to feel better for herself, but also being able to realize that that's impacting, you know, her family. And, and then for the husband to be as supportive as possible. Yes, you know, sexual libido goes down, but, you know, there's For women, we may lose that sexual desire, you know, where men continue to keep that, you know, long-term into their— as they age. But for women, we're not so visually like— we don't look, you know, we're not always like ready to go. But we do get aroused during the foreplay or the, you know, the caressing. And that doesn't go away.
Barb Wilson [00:23:28]:
You know, even in menopause or perimenopause, you don't lose the ability to be aroused or to, um, you know, have an orgasm. So it's more, I guess, the sensitivity— the sensitivity of the husband to be able to, um, know what, what would help his wife, right? Be able to, to feel accepting of sexual intimacy.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:50]:
Yeah. So even, even as if like now where if she's having this seasonal change in her body, uh, her period, the sensitivity of touch would be, don't touch me. And I used to probably be unaware of the period, more so now because we're on this app called Lively, and it— yeah, it literally tells me.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:12]:
I like track my period now so that he— and then synced it up with his app.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:16]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:16]:
And then he knows when— what part of the cycle I'm on, so I don't even have to say I mean, that wasn't around when I was—
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:24]:
Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:24]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:25]:
So Lively, please sponsor this podcast. Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:28]:
I mean, there's lots of apps. I think there's other apps too, but yeah, I hadn't heard of that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:32]:
But just the awareness piece for me to being like, I don't even have to ask that question of like, oh, I wonder.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:38]:
It says all the symptoms of like what part of my cycle is in and all that. I know. It's actually very— Well, because I track it. I would put in the dates of when it— which I need to do actually. Yeah, put it in. But, um, and then yeah, it just tracks your cycle. Then I can be like, oh, this is probably why I'm feeling this. Or it's like, these are foods you should eat, these are like movements you should do, things you should do this week and stuff like that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:25:04]:
And it's been helpful for me too just to kind of balance my own hormones.
Barb Wilson [00:25:08]:
And, and then sometimes it's when you don't know what's going on with you that can increase your anxiety.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:25:15]:
Totally. Because you're like, like you said I'm getting dementia, or I have a tumor, or like, you know, could you— could start like scrambling and going down a rabbit hole.
Barb Wilson [00:25:23]:
So, so I think, you know, just under— if say, for example, a wife starts to recognize, goes to the doctor, okay, you could be in perimenopause, and then you have a, you know, a supportive husband and you can talk about it. Um, sometimes knowledge just helps reduce that anxiety, and then when you Then when the wife realizes, oh, maybe this is about that, there are so many ways that you can cope with that. There's things that you can do to help with that in that moment, even if it's irritability, you know, like tuning into your body and taking a moment to reduce whatever the stress is, or reduce maybe, you know, some things that are— maybe have always been stressful, but now it's, you know, you are unable to cope with, like, learning how to delegate some of those things, or, you know. So once you know, in a, in a marriage, it's, it's, it's like going through any other hard time. You just, you work it out together. And in a healthy marriage, it, you know, we, we got through it okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:26]:
Yeah, for sure. And, and, and as I was kind of alluding to, the fact that I used to feel very, uh, offended or denied when it was that season and I didn't know not to touch her, or like, don't touch me. It's like, what did I do, right? And so now this is obviously magnified in this season of time, but as I become more secure, I've discovered, oh, she's just needing a few days to revisit.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:51]:
Yeah, because like day 2 of your menstrual cycle, you just feel like garbage. Like you just want to lie down. Like you're tired, you're bloated. Like you just feel heavy, you ache. Like if you get cramps, which I do and did in the past, they're better after having kids. But it's like you just need to do nothing, although that's not always an option, and rarely it is for a lot of women. But yeah, yeah, it's, uh, yeah, it's a lot. Women go through a lot.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:17]:
They do. They do. And so in this season of time, it happens a little bit more often in a month, or is it just— could have happened in 90 days or 10 days, or, you know, or is there—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:27]:
I think it's sporadic, right?
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:28]:
It's just unknown.
Barb Wilson [00:27:30]:
Oh my gosh, erratic. It's not like you can maybe track it, but it does. So it does progress. Does that make sense? And because it can go on so long, and I'm trying to remember, I think I went through it for about 10 years. 10 years.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:48]:
That's a decade.
Barb Wilson [00:27:49]:
But it becomes your new normal too. Yeah, right. And then Yeah, you kind of— for me, it escalated to the point where I realized, okay, I can't, I can't manage this anymore on my own.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:02]:
And that's when I went on the patch, right?
Barb Wilson [00:28:04]:
And, and I was thinking, why the heck didn't I do this sooner? I feel so much better.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:10]:
Interesting.
Barb Wilson [00:28:10]:
So then once I did, things kind of, you know, calmed down for me and normalized, and I didn't feel quite so crazy. And then when I went off the patch, it was you know, I kind of went into menopause and it was a very smooth transition. Oh, that's good.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:27]:
So, so, okay, after perimenopause you hit menopause, and that's kind of—
Barb Wilson [00:28:33]:
you know that when your cycle kind of basically stops, it's over, right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:38]:
Um, is the sex life from peri to menopause, does it change? Like, like, is those 10 years, it's just, you know, different, and then it goes back to being easier? Or are there other, like, issues? Like, you're, you're 10 years older, so it's— right, you're the end.
Barb Wilson [00:28:56]:
I don't know, I'm just— again, things become your new normal, right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:59]:
You have to adjust.
Barb Wilson [00:29:00]:
You're adjusting. So, you know, for a wife, if your, your libido, you know, kind of declines, you're learning new ways to keep that passion alive. So you're having to adjust, like I said. Where it's more what can we do to set it up? And realizing that I will, once I get to the party, I'm going to have fun.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:23]:
You're going to be there.
Barb Wilson [00:29:24]:
I may not feel like going to the party.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:26]:
Oh yeah.
Barb Wilson [00:29:26]:
But once I'm at the party, then I'm going, oh, I'm really glad I came to the party.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:32]:
Yeah. I usually have to change my attitude at the party. Be like, fine, we're here.
Barb Wilson [00:29:37]:
Right. And of course, For women, I mean, it's just so complicated sometimes because they're working. If you've got— and you're going through perimenopause often if you've had children when you're in your 20s, they're now teenagers and they can be challenging.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:53]:
Sure.
Barb Wilson [00:29:54]:
Yeah. And so, and sometimes you're waiting for when they get older, you're waiting up for them to come home before you can go to sleep. And so your sleep is disrupted and it's It's just, it's life. It's going through life. The, the awesome thing is when you can work together, it's just like any other thing. I mean, you brought home your baby, um, you had to adjust, didn't you?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:30:18]:
Right?
Barb Wilson [00:30:18]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:30:18]:
Right?
Barb Wilson [00:30:19]:
Yeah. And then, you know, if the wife went back to work, you had to adjust again. Like, there's always, there's always adjustments and transitions in life. So this isn't anything to be scared of in, in your marriage relationship. Relationship. It's just another adjustment. And I love how God gives us time to transition to that, which is— sometimes people are getting married at, you know, different stages in their life, and of course that makes it— that transition is going to be a little bit more, um, sudden for them, right? But I just love how, you know, God allows us to grow through these different transitions so that we come to this point, we're already— we've already learned to adjust. And be sensitive to each other.
Barb Wilson [00:31:01]:
But the awesome thing is if we really work through that period and then you get into the after part of that and then just start to be able to have fun where after menopause, you start to feel— I feel young again, really. I feel— That's great. I always think I feel like I'm still 45, between 45 and 50. You look it. Thank you, but I don't believe you. But anyways, but I— that was like a really fun— even though that's when I was going through perimenopause, that's kind of like a fun age, like you're still young enough. I was writing books then and speaking, and I was, you know, having an exciting, you know, productive time in my life. And so, yeah, so, you know, it's not like it's all perimenopause.
Barb Wilson [00:31:49]:
There's like this and this, right? Like a chapter, other things going on in your life. And this is one thing God has made us, you know, so resilient as human beings to be able to adjust to hard things. I was just— came back from New York and I was saying I'm so glad I live in California, but I used to live on the East Coast, as you Canadians know. Um, also Canadian, but, um, it's in New York City for— and, and like we had like 3 layers of clothes on to go outside, right? Like it was cold and I remembered how that felt. But I noticed that even after a week, I started to adjust to, like, yeah, where I would go, oh, it doesn't feel that bad. Oh, like, it's 32 degrees. Oh, why doesn't it feel that bad? Like, I should be freezing. Yeah.
Barb Wilson [00:32:36]:
And so I just— I'm always amazed at how resilient we're able to be in certain times.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:43]:
Yeah.
Barb Wilson [00:32:43]:
Yeah. And that's true. We are— you can do this during this period of your life too.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:49]:
Yeah.
Barb Wilson [00:32:49]:
I—
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:49]:
my takeaways are the fact that as a guy's lens, which is all I can look forward to, um, is we have to lead with empathy and we have to believe in the experience that you're kind of going through. It's not like something for us to fix or understand. We just trust and support that there's going to be a lot of things that are happening. I'm here to talk about it. And the other one I had was, was to not take it personal. Yes. So that was maybe what my experience would have been later, earlier in life, to now being secure, which is my third point of like work on the secure attachment, as Kevin would talk about a lot now. Because as this season hits, to your point, there's many different seasons that marriages go through.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:30]:
And to have that secure attachment is the goal, so that I can support, I cannot take, uh, you know, person, you know, offense, offense to it, and we'll get through this, right? And so do I have that a little bit of—
Barb Wilson [00:33:43]:
yes, yeah, oh, I agree. Okay, so yeah, don't take it personally.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:47]:
Yeah.
Barb Wilson [00:33:48]:
Yeah. And, you know, try to avoid— because the wife sometimes will think that you just want them— you— that they want to fix you so that you'll want to have sex more. And that can be like a little bit, you know, challenging for the wife because they're already feeling like, you know, I, for some, could say I could not have sex the rest of my life at this point. You know, sometimes. Right. That's too bad. And so, but not everyone, but I have heard it escape from some women's lips, but that doesn't mean that it has to stop, because with that gentleness and care that a husband and support helps them to not feel damaged, like damaged goods.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:35]:
Oh yeah, that's good. Was there any, like, thing in your course that you did that you just found so interesting, or like one big takeaway? That you think is important for people to know?
Barb Wilson [00:34:48]:
Well, I think that was kind of, um, a new, a new concept for me, but I'm— is what I'm seeing in my office too, is women going through perimenopause, and maybe they're mistaking that for, I shouldn't have married you, I don't love you, you know, I don't feel the same love for you. And I've put up with, you know, your nonsense, and now I'm out. And I'm thinking of someone I have right now who, you know, is kind of feeling that way, and she's right at that age when I, I think she could be, you know, feeling that, and it could be part of the what's going on hormonally. And then women will make these big decisions that will destroy themselves or their future. And it could be something that is just completely hormonal. Wow. That has nothing to do with, um, because, you know, feeling love comes and goes, right? So, um, and so that breaks my heart because I'm thinking of a few people that I have that are thinking that way right now, and it could really be hormonal as opposed to Um, you know, relationship, never married you. Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:08]:
And I'm out. Some pet peeve has caused me to magnify the problem. So if you're talking to that person, because you're seeing them, I'm sure there's many out there that are now listening and saying, huh, I wonder about myself. Well, how would you encourage them to discover that?
Barb Wilson [00:36:23]:
Well, yeah, I think getting some help, you know, kind of being able to process what's really going on And I'm trying to understand. I think in seeing— I often send people to get a medical checkup and find out what's going on hormonally. Is— have you gotten your thyroid checked? Because sometimes if that's out of whack, that can really mess with your mood. And your mood, how you're feeling, can impact how you think and vice versa. And it could be completely based on something going on hormonally as opposed to— I mean, you might— you're still upset with maybe what's— maybe some things that need to change in your marriage, but it's not divorce-worthy, right? At this point it's fixable, right? But you know what, some of the people I'm thinking of, it's like, no, this is, this is the problem. I'm not even going to consider it. This is where I find it, you know, a little challenging when, um, they won't even consider that it's like something so black and white.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:22]:
Yeah, in their mind, no, it's all you and I'm out.
Barb Wilson [00:37:25]:
And, and so not to be able to even consider that it could be something, um, that, that they're going through. And I try to think, like, I try to say to them, like, okay, think 5 years down the road, 10 years. Like, you know, most people are often will change their mind and going, I shouldn't have left. Like, you, right, it wasn't so bad with you now.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:48]:
Yeah. And then they really— then they're all alone. Or— yeah. Oh, so ladies, before you want to leave your husband, check your hormones.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:57]:
Tell your friends. Well, I would agree.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:59]:
Absolutely. Can it start a little bit before 45? I'm just thinking out loud here.
Barb Wilson [00:38:06]:
Sometimes feel like that every month. I know, because of PMS, right? Like, you go through that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:13]:
So there's no day that you would be like, I'm now in perimenopause.
Barb Wilson [00:38:18]:
No, it's gradual. No, it's so gradual.
Blaine Neufeld [00:38:21]:
Yeah, that's so tough.
Barb Wilson [00:38:22]:
Yeah. And again, if you've had some sort of you know, any kind of surgery. For me, I had a hysterectomy when I was 35. Oh, you did? Yeah, but they didn't take out my ovaries, so I still had the hormonal thing, you know. But yeah, for women that have had that— and they don't do that as much now.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:39]:
Yeah, I think keeping the ovaries is more common.
Barb Wilson [00:38:41]:
Well, you know, even hysterectomies, they try to do alternative things to not remove the uterus because it does kind of put your body into some sort of shock and early perimenopause, which I did.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:53]:
So, um, oh, so you were even younger then?
Barb Wilson [00:38:54]:
So I had to— yeah, so I, I learned and adjusted sooner. Yeah, I also had other problems. Yeah, other medical conditions. So, okay, uh, we went through a lot when, when I— we were married younger. I have celiac disease and a few other autoimmune, and I had some major surgeries and almost died a couple times. So my husband went through a lot. Oh, so I'm maybe putting in that perspective, perimenopause was It doesn't—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:19]:
it was easy.
Barb Wilson [00:39:20]:
It was one of the easier things you went through because he thought I was gonna die a few times. Oh wow. So perimenopause was like, I, I guess in relation, that was a pretty—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:30]:
yeah, uh, easy, minor.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:30]:
And we, we will have Eric on hopefully very soon, which we can talk about some of those, uh, stories and how— because you alluded to the fact of this is one segment of life that as a good couple can work through. There's many other ones that many people are going through. So yeah. I think, I mean, I've learned a fair bit here today, and yeah, and some of the things that I'm taking away is the fact that women, it's great to have community, it's great to have language, it's great to be able to talk about these moods with your friends to support you, to talk to your husbands. Husbands, it's important that we start to understand some of these terminologies and understand that it's not personal. There are seasons that take place here so that if we have those conversations, babe I don't know if you're—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:14]:
oh yeah, we can change the odds.
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:16]:
Yes.
Barb Wilson [00:40:17]:
Yes, you can.
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:19]:
Thank you so much. We'll see you guys next time.