Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hey. Welcome back to Change the Odds, the podcast for marriage and family. We're never meant to be a game of chance. My name is Kevin Thompson with Blaine and Adrienne Neufeld. How are we?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:08]:
We're very good.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:08]:
We're here, we're back. And we're back.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:11]:
How about that? So the last episode did not cause too big of a fight. No, no. If y'all remember, the last time y'all were here, y'all had had a little bit of a tiff, but it was too soon to go into.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:21]:
I can't remember.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:22]:
Okay. Oh, man, I was so.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:24]:
Must have not been that.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:25]:
I was so excited to see if maybe we.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:27]:
We were knowing a few tiffs.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:29]:
I'm not hard to keep track of now. Yeah. All right, so we always open with a question. Sure. And then we get into the topic of the day. What's the question of the day?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:39]:
So today's question, what we have is what is best for marriage. Separate blankets or one blanket?
Kevin Thompson [00:00:46]:
Oh, wow.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:46]:
In the bed.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:47]:
Interesting.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:48]:
Yes. We've experienced both, so we're trying to carry it. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:52]:
Really?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:52]:
We're back. We're. We're on one.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:54]:
We're back to one.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:55]:
We're on.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:56]:
I've never done separate.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:57]:
Oh, it's wonderful.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:59]:
Now on the couch.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:00]:
Yeah, sure.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:00]:
On the couch. Separate. Right. But even. No, even then I encroach.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:05]:
Encroach.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:05]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:06]:
Well, he had a weighted blanket for a while, and I didn't want to touch it.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:09]:
So he is your weighted blanket.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:13]:
But it's ugly, so I told him to toss it.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:16]:
Okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:16]:
I had to get rid of it. But it. One of those weighted blankets that's helped with restless legs and stuff. Wonderful.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:22]:
But I'm more intrigued by how emphatic you were about how wonderful separate blankets are and then how Adrienne said, you're back to one.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:28]:
So we're back to one. And one of the big problems is our children are coming to the bed, which is another conversation.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:34]:
Oh, that's a whole different. Oh, that's a whole different topic. Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:37]:
But because one of our daughters always pulls the blanket, it just really annoys me because it wakes me up all the time. So when I'm sitting cozy over there with one blanket, I'm just. I'm good. I'm good.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:49]:
So y'all let the kids sleep in the bed?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:51]:
Well, we're working on it.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:53]:
Interesting.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:53]:
One of us does.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:54]:
How old are the kids? Remind me.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:56]:
3 and 6.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:57]:
So here.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:58]:
14.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:59]:
Different for different people. Here was our policy for kids growing up. First of all no kids sleep in the bed until 5am 5am and on then. Okay. Before 5am then one of us would go put the child back to bed because we did not want to get into the habit of that, actually. To which I would say to this day is still the greatest test of integrity I've ever experienced in marriage, which is, let's say the kid's not old enough to make it downstairs to get into bed. The kid's crying. And we have not clarified before we went to bed, which we normally do.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:35]:
Who gets the first trip? So now, middle of the night, it's 1am in Arkansas. We're exhausted. And Jenny's like, are you going to? And I'm like, are you going to? And then it's rock, paper, in the middle of the night.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:48]:
In the middle of the night, yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:50]:
And now I say, what do you have? And Jenny says, rock. It's the greatest test of integrity you can ever imagine. Do you admit that you have scissors or do you say you have paper? Which is it? What do you do at night? And I'm too guilty. I have too much of a guilty conscience.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:08]:
I had to get up and go, wow.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:11]:
Yeah. We always said no kids in bed, but once you're in the morning time.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:15]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:15]:
And sometimes that's when they're in the bed. I lost my thought.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:19]:
We should do that for a week and see.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:21]:
See.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:22]:
Oh. See what happens.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:23]:
Well, it changed with the first kid. Was like, no, we'll make a bed for you on the floor.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:28]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:28]:
Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:28]:
And then it's slowly. We've just been lazier.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:31]:
There's an element too. We've moved a fair bit. So then our hearts kind of break for the kids because they're.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:36]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:36]:
And we're in a new place.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:38]:
No question. I'm not saying there's right or wrong in it. I'm just saying here's how we approached it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:41]:
Have sympathy.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:42]:
We also went. We also went, no, no animals in the bed. Like, it's just.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:47]:
We're just.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:48]:
No animals.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:49]:
That's not a problem.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:50]:
Is that a Canadian thing? No. Oh, Canadians have an.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:53]:
They do. They love animals. They love dogs. Not many cat lovers.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:57]:
Anyways, this is getting out of hand.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:59]:
Okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:59]:
Okay. What do we got?
Kevin Thompson [00:04:00]:
Here we go. Today, Blaine and Adrienne. We're going. Personality. How does your personality actually impact your relationship? And here's what I think is going to be interesting is we as humans like to think we're so unique. Nobody understands me. No. Understands my problems.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:18]:
Our dynamic is so. It's fascinating. A couple Comes in. And what they don't realize many times is they feel like they gotta share eight hours of background to get me up to speed with what's going on. And about 30 seconds in, I already know.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:33]:
You know?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:34]:
Yeah, you've heard it all before.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:35]:
And not that it's not with perfection by any means. And yes, but until today, because we.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:39]:
Have two unique people here, two of you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:42]:
We're very.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:43]:
Yes, but we. This. We are far more predictable than we realize. Here's another thing. I don't think people understand our lives in general. But then our relationships are primarily run on autopilot. Think about this. If you and I had to sit here and think about our breathing, our digestion, our heart beating, if we had to think about those things, we would not have any space whatsoever.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:07]:
Matter of fact, if we had to think about those things, we wouldn't have enough space to actually think about those things. The heartbeat and the breathing would be so important, we wouldn't be able to digest anything. We'd die no matter what. So obviously there are these things that have to be done on autopilot. We get that. What we fail to realize is that actually most of our reaction, most of our responses, most of our thoughts, our considerations are actually done on autopilot. There are these pathways that are in our lives that we have. Whether it's nature or nurture doesn't necessarily matter.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:36]:
They have become natural to us, and that's how we respond. And what we don't recognize is how we're running our lives on autopilot. But thankfully, we can actually rewire that. We can change the autopilot, and that's how relationships become successful. But if we don't recognize the autopilot, we have no chance of impacting it or reacting in a different way. And one of the main aspects that would create our autopilot is that idea of personality. Our personalities are different. If anybody doubts that, look at this table right now.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:12]:
Blaine and I are not the same person. I don't think there's any question about that whatsoever. It's possible you couldn't have two personalities more different than you and I, which is why I love you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:23]:
That's great.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:23]:
Because I don't need another me. I need you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:26]:
I need you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:27]:
Are you guys married? What's happening right now?
Kevin Thompson [00:06:30]:
That would never work. And so we're going to talk about this concept of personality. So do you all have. What's your background on knowing your own personality? Knowing. I mean, you got all sorts of tests. You got Meyer, Briggs, you Got disc. You got. Which animal are you? What color are you? Enneagram.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:49]:
All those things.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:50]:
I will say. Can I start, please? So I will say I've done a lot of tests, and because I'm so unique and my pride gets in the way, I don't capture it because you can't put me in a box type of thing.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:00]:
Right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:01]:
So I like to think that, oh, wow, I'm super unique, therefore I can't be pigeonholed. But we've done the Myers Briggs that.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:08]:
Actually is a personality type.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:10]:
There you go. Classic and enneagram. So very curious as to kind of. And nobody's really ever explained it out to me. So I go and get a number, I get a thing, I get a this or that, But I don't totally understand it. So that would be fun for me.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:26]:
To understand one thing at that thing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:29]:
Oh, the one thing at the thing. Oh, that was. So I went to an emotional intelligence weekend getaway retreat. So I've done a test, and it was. That one was probably the most useful for me because it kind of lined up with some of my strengths. And she really started to talk. So I guess I had a high emotional intelligence awareness of people see this as having. And so she was talking to me, too, about, like, what do you do for work? And I'm like, well, at the time, I was running the hockey team, and I was selling sponsorships and tickets and, you know, I could become businessmen's friends and support the hockey team.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:02]:
And that seemed very natural to me. But then she says, you can either take this gift that you have and serve your own kingdom and build up your own empire, or as I was starting with Mark Clark's church in Canada, you could use it to actually sell Jesus and this idea of finding what that person's needing and then bringing them that connection to whatever the thing is, to have the aha moment to. It really changed my mind because it was like utilizing what you're very, very good at and my personality, because it's so natural for me to enjoy people and get to know people that I thought that was a unique perspective of, because I think I felt guilty at manipulating people for the wrong thing. But suddenly she's like, no, manipulation isn't what you're doing. You know what I'm saying?
Kevin Thompson [00:08:47]:
You're helping people get what they want. Absolutely.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:51]:
So very fascinating.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:51]:
Yeah. So here's what Dan Siegel down at ucla, he's the founder of Interpersonal Neurobiology. So the concept there is our relationships actually rewire our brain, which Is one thing that I love within married life is, think about this. You can actually. And you are actually wiring your brain either to love each other more or to love each other less. Every single day, every interaction is rewiring the brain that's inside of you that's gonna dictate who you are tomorrow. As a matter of fact, I would say the marriage you have is the result of the work that you were doing five years ago. And so the marriage you're gonna have five years from now is gonna be the byproduct of the work that you're actually doing today.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:33]:
And what we don't recognize is that there's actual biology that's taking place. We often think biology is what we're born with, and we're stuck in it. But neuroplasticity says that your brain is actually moldable. And as you give attention to something, the neurons in your brain, as they fire together, they actually end up wiring together to make it a simpler pathway. And so Siegel and a group of friends of his down there have discovered that there are these patterns of developmental pathways. He describes nine of them that basically, we all kind of lean one way or the other. Now, it doesn't mean that we're stuck in that by any means. Matter of fact, he would say that all nine of these are things that are necessary for us.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:17]:
So think about this. Think about as you enter into a room. As you enter that room, does that room need you to immediately kind of make peace with everybody? Sometimes. Well, other times, you need to walk in and find what's wrong and what needs to be fixed. Well, other times, you need to walk in and figure out, how can I help what's going on. Other times, you need to walk in, and there's something to be done, to be achieved in some ways. Other times, you need to walk in. I do funerals for a living.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:42]:
You need to walk in and feel the pain or see the beauty that is there. Sometimes you need to figure things out. What's the task that needs to be done. Other times, you just need to build strong relationships. Sometimes you need to have fun. Sometimes you need to take charge. Right? Those are. I just described nine different pathways.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:01]:
Here's what happens is not every room needs the exact same thing from you. But if we don't recognize that we actually lean one way more than the others, what will happen is we'll walk into every room, giving it what just comes naturally to us, not understanding what the room actually needs more.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:21]:
So what you need almost to be comfortable in the Room.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:23]:
Absolutely. And there's nothing wrong with the way you lean, the way you kind of naturally lead in that moment. That's good. You just have to recognize this isn't what I need to choose every single time. And one thing I think Siegel is really good about is by describing these nine pathways, by then helping you understand, all right, here's the primary way I lead. Here's what comes naturally to me. Then you can begin to recognize, oh, is that what's needed right here? So I am, by nature, fear kind of runs me. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:54]:
Like, I'm always where Jenny says she never has to worry about anything because I worry about everything. Right. And so there's a great strength to that. I mean, literally, I am keeping Jenny alive at times because she's not thinking about things. Right. But I remember one time we're in Glacier national park, one of our favorite places to be. We're on this hike, and. And in that moment, Jenny does not need to know the statistics of how many people have died on this trail.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:20]:
I know it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:21]:
You do.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:22]:
I've researched it. And if I'm not thinking about it, I'll share that information. But that's not what she needs. She needs me to calm down and have fun, help her do these other things. But if I'm not aware of my personality, I will just keep on leading with that one spot, and that's going to hinder us in some way.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:42]:
Yeah, that's fun. It makes me excited about getting to know personalities now, because when you say you're working ahead five years in advance, essentially, right. Is like, you think about when the kids move out, and then you forget that you loved your spouse, but the work that you're doing now. Because I think a strength of ours is our friendship. But we put that work in before we even started dating, and it just kind of kept going so that I don't have that fear once the kids are gone. I know we're a ways away of that, but, like, we would have fun together. So therefore, I'm excited. But we're putting in that work, and it's attractive to us.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:16]:
Whereas some get busy with what they do because their personalities or their desires or what have you, suddenly they're like, man, we didn't do any work. So it's exciting now to know this for especially a lot of young couples, is like, let's do the work now. Let's actually start to apply this to our marriage now. So that when the kids are gone, we're rocking and rolling.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:34]:
Oh, no, absolutely. And here's the thing. I can tell you. So Ella's gone to college. Silas just passed his driver's test, so we are experiencing some empty nest, right? It's lovely. Oh, you can't say this out loud, but, like. Like, Silas passed his driver's test the other day, and I was secretly just snuck up to his room and started packing his things in some way. What a good dad.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:55]:
It's bittersweet.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:56]:
Love the boy.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:57]:
Love him, of course.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:58]:
But, oh, my goodness. All the best gold at this moment. I love it. Okay, so here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna slowly walk through what Siegel has talked about, and then I've given you all a little bit of homework. I've taken it. I've compiled some things, and in the next episode, I have Blaine and Adrienne's. What I think are your five strengths and your five weaknesses that you gotta watch out for.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:23]:
And in the next episode, I'm gonna give those to you, and you're gonna tell me, all right, Is this real or not? Let's be honest. We've worked together for a little bit. I do not know you well enough to say, here's relationally, your strengths and weaknesses. There is no way I can get this right unless. Unless personality is real. And there are actually some predictable patterns. And here's the beautiful thing. If they're predictable, it means whatever somebody's going through today, somebody else is going through as well.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:49]:
And other people have overcome. We can overcome it, those kind of things. But we got to get started dancing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:53]:
A long way to go.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:54]:
Here we go. Okay, so Siegel is going to talk about. There are three basic motivators in life that all of us have. These. We all need these. They're not unique to anybody. And they are agency, bonding, and certainty. I call that the ABC Agency, bonding, and certainty.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:15]:
And so in the womb, he's going to say, you're developing a sense of self. That's agency. That I control myself. I control my body. I'm going to have choices. I'm going to have decisions. That I am distinct. Even in the womb, I'm distinct from my mother.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:31]:
I'm part, but I'm distinct. And then obviously, you're born. And that becomes very clear that we have agency over our own lives. We need to be able to dictate what we're going to experience and who we are. Right? So that's a separation. That's an identity in and of itself. Bonding is. Then we are created for relationship, that if we are outside of relationship, we will Suffer.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:54]:
As a matter of fact, the human brain actually cannot order itself apart from relationship with other people. And so if a child is born completely isolated, there will be extreme malfunction in that brain because we can't figure out who we are apart from other people. Right. So that's bonding. We have to be in relationship. And then certainty means we need some sort of predictability about life. If I have no idea what's going to happen tomorrow, where I'm going to be, how I'm going to eat, if I have no idea and I don't see any correlation between what I do and. And the consequences I experience, again, we can't function.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:33]:
The human brain is this amazing tool of predictability to begin to figure out what patterns are so that we can function within that and figure out how can I impact and influence what's going on. So agency, bonding, certainty, those are universal needs for every single human being that exists. However, whether it's nature or nurture, there's disagreement upon that. There is one of those that each of us leans to first in thinking. That's what I need the most, that. All right, so we live, or think about this. We're in the womb. Generally speaking, our needs are met.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:18]:
Life is good. Generally speaking, life is good. Not that there's not some negative things that are going on. Life is good. We are then expelled out into the world. That is a traumatic experience. And now everything is brand new. Our needs are not always instantly met, anything like that.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:36]:
There's unpredictability that's taking place. We feel the separation from our caregivers. And whether it is the first thing that fires after birth, whether it's something that actually happens in the womb still, I don't know. It doesn't matter. Whether it's nature or nurture doesn't matter. But we are all predisposed to one of those three things above. The other two doesn't mean the other two don't matter.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:58]:
Instantly.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:00]:
We are predisposed.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:01]:
Wow.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:02]:
In some way. Wow. Agency bonding, certainly. So without any more information, what do you think is yours or how do you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:11]:
How would you even discover that bonding for me?
Kevin Thompson [00:18:14]:
Bonding, yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:15]:
So yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:15]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:16]:
I wonder.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:16]:
You need people you think you need.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:18]:
Yeah, I think I need people around me because there's this. And one of the things that I've done in the past year is a lot of like self discovery in terms of just like my kingdom identity and some of the fears that Satan has put the lies that have been told to me by Satan along the way and one of them was loneliness. So it's like, I don't know that I feel one of my fears is just me and Jesus. Is that enough? Me and God. Is that enough? So, therefore, I got to put people around me to kind of give me a little bit of comfort and closure. And one of the fears that we've had. I don't want to jump too far, but this is going deep pretty quick, is to lose Adrienne would, I think, cripple me because therefore I'd be alone.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:59]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:59]:
Right. So then I do a lot of things in our marriage to make. Try to make her happy, keep her, you know?
Kevin Thompson [00:19:05]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:06]:
That's how I like her.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:08]:
She's alert this fear and maximize this fear. But it's interesting because I had that discovery, like, maybe four months ago, but dictated how I acted and treated and. And the. The insecurities of me to want to hold on to that. That's why I think, bonding.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:28]:
You're also a man.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:29]:
And.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:29]:
Okay, men don't do well without their wives. Seriously, a man in a healthy marriage.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:34]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:34]:
Does not do well.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:35]:
So maybe it's more common that it would be a fear of mine. But it was interesting to discover because then I. I think I have a hard time. Like, silence and solitude scares me to be alone and listen, and I. And that's why I talk. That's why I do a lot of things and keep everybody happy. And, you know, let's not get down too deep here, you know, that type of thing. But anyway, that's why I think.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:56]:
What do you think for you? I mean, just a guess.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:58]:
I think certainty.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:59]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:01]:
I forget kind of what that means, but, like, just predictable.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:05]:
In life, you want prediction.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:07]:
Yeah. Yep. I definitely like that.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:08]:
Security.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:09]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:09]:
As well.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:10]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:10]:
Yeah. So here's an interesting thing Siegel has pointed out, other researchers have as well, is when any of these three are missing, there's a specific emotion related to that. And so he's gonna say, when you and I do not have agency, it expresses itself as agitation, as irritation, as anger. A lack of agency produces anger. Agency, again, like agency, is control over yourself, of yourself. So, yeah, I'm in control over myself. I am distinct from everybody else, and I get to make my own choices and decisions. So when you don't have that, it expresses itself as anger.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:47]:
Now, anger can express itself in different ways for different people. Some people are extremely comfortable with anger. They'll say, I'm angry. Others are less comfortable with it. They'll say, well, I'm frustrated. It's still the same thing. Irritation, frustration, anger. That's all the same thing.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:00]:
When you and I don't have bonding, what we experience then is sadness or shame. So there's something. If I'm not.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:07]:
This looks like, wow, sorry.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:09]:
Clearly, it's. We just hit on something, but we don't. We're sad that we don't have the connection that we want. And then we internalize that as there must be something wrong with me that I'm separated from the group. And then a lack of certainty produces then fear, because I don't know what tomorrow's gonna hold. I'm kind of panicked. So worry, anxiety, all those things. Fear would be a byproduct of certainty.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:35]:
Now, let's think about. First of all, we're parents. Think about how you can use this as an interpretive tool for your spouse, for your kids, Anything like that. Your kids come home from school today, and you can just tell they're irritated. You can ask, all right, what is it about their lives or what happened today where they felt like they lost the sense of agency?
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:55]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:55]:
That they didn't have control.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:56]:
So maybe a cheat code, but this is on point. Can I switch from school and actually do something for us? Because we're moving, we think because we've moved so much, the certainty that our kids are missing has caused them to develop anxiety.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:10]:
Oh, my gosh. It's been a tough week.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:12]:
And it's been interesting to see, because even drop off at school now has become. No, mom.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:17]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:18]:
Clinging.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:18]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:19]:
And it's like, what are we doing here?
Kevin Thompson [00:22:20]:
No doubt.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:21]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:21]:
No doubt. And I would be careful as a parent, I would be careful to necessarily conclude what we did has now caused this, because how do you know they wouldn't be going through this developmentally anyway, even if you hadn't moved? Now, it's fair to think and to consider, and especially to be compassionate and empathetic, that we have moved a lot. That's going to cause a lot of different things. But don't just assume. We tend to very quickly take blame for things that are pretty natural in life, these developmental patterns that are taking place. And then we just assume, oh, it's because I did that. That's why my kid's experiencing this. No, generally, your kids are experiencing things as their brains are interpreting what's going on.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:04]:
They're experiencing those things because that's just the developmental pathway that they're on. Don't necessarily shoulder that with yourself. Good. To be compassionate toward it, but then to recognize I think you're onto something that is Important is this is exposing a little bit of. There's less predictability in their lives right now. So it wouldn't be shocking for them to go through a season here where anxiety or fear is heightened to some extent. No question. But you can take this just as an interpretive tool.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:33]:
If they come home today and they're sad, you can ask yourself, what relationship didn't go well today? Did the teacher say something that kind of caused them to feel like I'm not as approved of? Did a friend in class maybe not pick them or sit by them at lunch? So irritation, frustration, anger is going to be. What did they not have control of? Did a teacher make them do something today they didn't want to do? Right. Or took away recess? Think about that. A kid's not as our one kid, even this concept, let's say recess is taken away from a child. Three different kids could experience that in three different ways.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:12]:
Exactly.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:13]:
One could be irritated. I've lost control of my schedule. The other one could be sad. I don't get to spend time with my friends. The other one could be afraid. Am I going to lose recess tomorrow? Same situation. Three different responses to that. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:28]:
And that begins to show us this personality, that there are pathways that we lean toward. So for me, I would probably be afraid of the lack of predictability. Wait a second. I lost recess today. Am I going to lose recess tomorrow? What about the next day? Yeah. Now my whole schedule for the rest of the week is thrown off. Right. Whereas my sister would be irritated.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:53]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:54]:
You're now taking away my ability to run my own life, to run my own schedule. Right. So she's right. Whereas you might be. I'm going to miss my friends. Same situation. But we can use this as an interpretive key, not only with our kids and our spouses, with ourselves.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:10]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:11]:
Why am I frustrated right now? Wow. And you take that back now into not just what situation happened, but what's underneath that situation that's causing me to go, oh, I don't feel control of myself or man, I kind of am sad. All right. What relationship do you need to work on? How can you create that bonding back into your life? Man, anxiety is dwelling up within me. I feel out of control of something. There's some certainty, there's predictability that I'm lacking. Right. And so let's begin to look at that.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:45]:
So the very root of what Siegel's going to talk about from a personality standpoint is anger, sadness, and fear, which is related to agency, bonding, and certainty. And we don't need to get into this. He actually can show in the brain, brain stem, prefrontal cortex, these subcortical structures that are just underneath in your brain, where these actually light up differently in different people. So there's a biology that's actually about behind this. But this is the beginning, foundation of what he's going to say, our personality, where it actually comes from. Wow.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:21]:
Can I just jump to anxiety for a minute? Because one really profound moment of my life was. Had a lot of panic attacks, had a lot of things that happened. It was when I was, like, kind of trying to make it as a hockey coach, a manager, and all those kind of things. And the stress of that work had. I was trying to control it all. I think I was trying to put it all together. I wanted to be important. All these things.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:44]:
Ended up having a panic attack. And then it kind of stemmed for a time and time and time and again. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is terrible. And didn't know what to do. But then suddenly, like, as I was sleeping one night, I wake up, typically, and have a panic attack. This time I woke up, I was having a pan attack. And then I kind of feel like the first time I audibly heard from God, no, you have a purpose. You're not dying today.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:08]:
It's okay. I have a plan for you. Anxiety gone. So I know that's, you know, what a gift.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:14]:
Right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:14]:
And so many people would struggle with anxiety, praying for that. But something must have healed in that moment with this idea that. You know what I'm saying?
Kevin Thompson [00:27:25]:
Think about what you feel like God gave you in that moment.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:28]:
Purpose.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:28]:
Certainty.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:29]:
Yeah, certainty. Exactly.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:31]:
And humanity can't have certainty about everything. Right. But in the midst of so many things that we don't understand what's going to happen, we do need to have some concept of what's going to take place. And what God told you is, in the midst of it, you do have purpose. And so he actually gave you a bit of certainty in that. That took that away.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:49]:
Yeah, yeah. Just bridging that together.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:51]:
So, Adrienne, your first thoughts on this idea of agency, bonding, certainty, anger, sadness, fear. As a mom, as a wife, as a person. How's your brain wrapping around that?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:02]:
I think I am. If I had to go back and choose, I think it would be bonding, certainty. I think that agency that's really tied to, like, faith. Because if you can get rid of this. Well, not get rid of, but, like, accept that, like, you can roll the dice, but God chooses where they land. Like, then you don't have as much, like, ownership or, like. What's the word I'm looking for?
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:31]:
Pressure.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:32]:
No, you just, you know, you can't control situations as much. So I think that's something you have to learn to let go of a little bit.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:41]:
Yeah, yeah. But all three of these are needed. We need all three of these as healthy human beings. You know, those kind of things. We have to have this sense of. I mean, we have to have the sense of control over our lives. If Blaine came in and tried to manipulate you or control you or anything.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:00]:
Oh, yeah, I did it.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:00]:
There would be this sense of pushback.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:02]:
Right. I would get mad.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:03]:
Yes. Because that's just a natural aspect. At the same time, if he totally separated himself from you, you would protest. You'd be like, come back here or I'll find somebody else less bad. But then there also has to be this sense of predictability, of, I know, I have a sense of what's going to happen next. And so we need all these things, I think, at every time in our lives. And that's just kind of what Siegel's kind of pointing out. And I think it's just really useful.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:35]:
Stuff, but I think it's very interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:37]:
But here's the thing. Siegel's not going to say there's three pathways to personality. There's nine. So how do we get to these nine? Well, then some other researchers have come in, and what they have discovered is that now there are three different ways that we actually attend to the world. We're about to go a step deeper here and understand.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:57]:
Let's go, Kev.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:58]:
Oh, boy.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:58]:
So let's go. So here's what's difficult. The way you and I see the world comes so naturally to us. We just assume everybody else sees the world that way too. Right. But people don't. Do you know that there's some people that do not have a running commentary in their head with themselves?
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:16]:
No.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:30:16]:
Really?
Kevin Thompson [00:30:17]:
Some people don't have that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:18]:
Wow.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:19]:
I have it unending.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:20]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:21]:
Unending. Some people don't have that. Some people. We have a co worker who. He sees math as colors.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:30:31]:
That doesn't make sense.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:32]:
As colors.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:33]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:33]:
People see music sometimes as colors. Right. And so people. We perceive we attend to the world in different ways. And so Siegel, through his researchers as well, with what he calls the PDP group, have determined and narrowed it down to three basic ways that we primarily attend to the world. We can do it all, but we primarily attend this way. Some people are inward first, and so they have basically Think about attention like a spotlight. They have a spotlight in their own head, in their own heart, in their own gut, primarily, first, before they see other people, they see other people, can be very helpful to other people.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:17]:
But it's just always, what am I doing right? What am I doing wrong? How can I do this? What can I do next? Right. So very inward. Others are extremely outward, and so it is. It can be outward on other people, or it can be outward on other things and tasks. So, you know, people who. They can get so caught up into a task that they forget to eat, they forget to sleep, they don't drink, they don't take care of themselves. They're so outwardly focused, they actually lose a little bit of their inward. It doesn't mean they don't have the ability to see inwardly.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:47]:
It's just outward comes first. Their primary tendency is outward. And then Siegel is going to say, there are a certain set of people that kind of look at the world both ways. He's going to call it dyadic, but it really means this kind of torn attention. I think dyadic kind of can be taken as relationally. And so they're going to see the world in this continual tension of both inward and outward. I'm this way, and so I really can't look inwardly. I struggle to look inwardly at myself without thinking about you guys sitting here at the exact same time at the same time.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:25]:
I really can't fully focus on the two of you without also considering me at the same time. And so you have these three forms of how to look at life. Primarily inward, primarily outward, or dyadic to where you have this. It's more of a relational view than looking at objects or just looking at self. Those are three different ways to attend the world. That's some deep stuff. What questions do you have?
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:55]:
My first mind jumps to early in our marriage. We go see someone chatting about how we're fighting or we're having a tough time because we have just moved to Vancouver, where I'm thriving at my job, and she's sitting in a rainy basement suite and, like, sad about life. Right? And so there's been a lot of tension in our marriage. We sat with somebody and they had said, oh, now I'm going to lose my train of thought. But it was how we fight was, I want to fix the problem immediately, so I want to speak out. I want to start talking about the problem outwardly. I'm just wondering if this applies. Whereas Adrienne is an internal processor, therefore she wanted to.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:36]:
What's the fight. I want to internalize this, but one of the things that was happening was she's internalizing and never coming back to the argument because we never fixed it. But I just want to fix it. I want to fix it. Let's just talk out loud.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:47]:
So she was your verbal or like a verbal processor, and I was an internal.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:51]:
Yeah. And I think I'm outwardly looking at her like, well, I'm good, so why don't we just fix you and fix this right? Meanwhile, it was both and right. But as soon as I had the assurance that she said, yeah, give me a day. Let me think about what we're fighting about, and then I can think about my thoughts and actually come and argue with you or discuss or discuss, or.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:14]:
You'Re making me look bad.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:16]:
But then we can fix the problem. And then that's what really solved us to a certain degree. And then communication really rose in our marriage in a healthy way.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:25]:
I think that's a good way to see. And whether or not that dictates or determines exactly what each of you are and how you attend to the world, I think it helps us to begin to start to think, oh, people do see these things differently. They approach them in different ways. We can even see with emotions how some people can wear an emotion on their sleeve and it just comes naturally to them, whereas others only express it in this very socially acceptable box. You kind of have to draw it out of them, and they feel guilty if they don't express it in that way. And then you see others who can't deal with certain emotions, and they will immediately shift the conversation into something else. And so they'll almost live in this state, denial of their own fear. And they'll be, oh, what's the next new exciting thing? Not realizing they're covering up.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:15]:
So we approach this world in different ways and to begin to have some insight of, okay, how do I see this? What am I? That kind of thing. So think about this. You have agency, bonding, certainty. Those are three things. And then you can look at the world from an inward perspective, an outward perspective, or a dyadic perspective. Once you merge, multiply those things together, that's how you get Siegel's nine pathways. So let's say let's begin to kind of walk through this just a little bit, and then we're going to get to you guys, which will be a lot of fun. So let's say you have somebody who's agency focused.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:55]:
They feel like, I can be happiest if I'm in control of myself. If other people are in control of themselves, so I don't have to take care of them, control them too much. Right. Now, that person or a group of people who think that can express that in different ways if they have an inward attendancy. So they're going to be focused on themselves, and it really is about controlling themselves. Right. So that's going to be one group of people. Other is going to be very outward focused, even as their fixation is on their own agency.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:27]:
It's going to be looking toward other things, other objects, those kind of things. And then others are going to be kind of caught in this tension of seeing both of those. That's going to express in different ways and even how you see a personality. Same thing with bonding, same thing with certainty. So let's take agency. If somebody is agency outward, right. Again, anger is the underlying emotion. They're going to have no problem expressing that emotion whatsoever.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:55]:
None. They're not fixated, really, on how they come across. Their attention is not first and foremost of how people are going to perceive me. Agency outward. And so they're going to be keen on justice and keen on getting things right and getting things done. And they'll challenge and take charge. And let's get look out. We need to fix all this out there, right? They'll lose sense of maybe who they are inwardly, but they're going to go after it.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:24]:
And so literally, anger is going to flow from them very easily, no problem whatsoever. They're going to take charge. They're going to give their opinion. They're not going to have any hesitation whatsoever. They're not going to live in fear, as I tend to live in fear of if I do this, what are they going to think about me? Because they're not thinking about themselves. So, you know, people who are these very challenging. Take charge.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:46]:
Is that an 8 on the enneagram?
Kevin Thompson [00:37:48]:
That would be an 8 on the enneagram. Oh, bridge the gap here.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:52]:
Somebody studying the one thing I got.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:54]:
Right today, look at what Ms. Neufeld has suddenly discovered.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:58]:
That's not me. I'm not an eight.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:02]:
The nine pathways that Siegel has discovered scientifically, basically what he's done, he has discovered what the Enneagram found long ago. And they didn't understand what they were finding. They were just making these observations of some people do this, some people do that. And over many, many years, that's become a little bit more and more codified. And so literally what happened is, I feel like Dan Siegel, who thought all this was junk by the way went to kind of disprove it, and in so doing, actually found the science behind it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:38:36]:
Wow.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:37]:
And so let's just start using the Enneagram language a little bit, because some people are more familiar with that. So on the enneagram, the numbers 8, 9, and 1 are all related to agency. It is this idea of, how can I be in control of myself and in charge of myself and those kind of things. But they express that in different ways.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:02]:
Right?
Kevin Thompson [00:39:03]:
And so an 8 is gonna have an outward attention to the world. So again, whenever it comes to anger, they're gonna be able to express it very quickly, very easily. It's gonna flow from them. Not a problem at all. They're gonna. Basically, Siegel's gonna use the phrase, they're gonna upload that emotion. It's all there. It's just out there.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:22]:
You never have to Wonder what an 8's thinking. It's always just right there. They'll tell you, and they'll tell you what you should do in response to it. Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:30]:
But can eight. Okay, can they be inward, too? Is that like a different number then?
Kevin Thompson [00:39:35]:
That's a different. That's a different number. So let's take that same mindset of, okay, I want agency, and I think that's probably what's best in this world. But instead of having an outward focus, I now have an inward focus. All right, well, now you have a one. So now you have this person. Think about this. Think about One aspect of A1 on the Enneagram is this constant kind of inward criticism, this constant list of things I'm not doing right.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:04]:
I need to do better, and that list will spill out. That critic voice will go to other people. They'll criticize other people at times, but primarily they're hearing it. Why? It's an inward focus. So whereas an 8 will maybe constantly. Could constantly be telling you what to do, a one's constantly telling themselves what they should be doing and how they're not doing good enough and they need to do better, all these kind of things. So think about this. All of these are gonna have pros and cons.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:35]:
So there's not gonna be any of these that. Ooh, that personality's better. I like that. I mean, let's face it. Sometimes you hear the joke of an eight hole.
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:44]:
Oh, I haven't heard this joke.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:46]:
Yeah, no, that can't. Because if you're an unhealthy eight, you can come across way too aggressive.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:54]:
Oh, eight hole.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:55]:
Yeah, there you go.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:55]:
Oh, I get it.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:56]:
Adrienne the comedian will get this.
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:58]:
It came back.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:00]:
But at the same time, an 8 can be beautiful. We need eights in the world. Justice and take care of things and all those kind of things. Now, what happens whenever a person has neither a primarily outward or a primarily inward attention to the world, and yet they want to. That the agency is still their thing? Well, that's a nine.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:22]:
Peacemaker.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:23]:
That's how you get the peacemaker. Because think about what they're thinking. They're thinking, basically, yeah, that's me. If I can get everybody kind of in the right spot, then I'll have agency over my life.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:35]:
Yes, I understand that. I was like, I don't know. I'm not really sure what I am. And then you said that, and I was like, that makes sense to me.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:45]:
Well, and here's the thing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:46]:
Say it again, because I need to.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:47]:
So the way a nine kind of works. So this is a nine on the integral. We would use the language. Siegel would use the language. This is somebody that is agency dyadic. So an 8 is agency outward, a 1 is agency inward. A 9 is agency dyadic. They're viewing the world primarily relationally or in a torn attention with self and then also with others.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:42:12]:
So are you a nine, then?
Kevin Thompson [00:42:13]:
No. Okay, sorry. But I'm going to share some things with an I. That's what's interesting. And that's why I think Siegel is so cool here in. Siegel says he doesn't want you thinking this is what I am. He wants you thinking I primarily lead this way, but there's other pathways I have access to as well. And some are going to come easier, and some are going to be more difficult.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:42:36]:
And then you can know what you need to work on and focus on.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:38]:
Right? That's exactly right. And literally what I find is I can walk into a room now, and I can feel my temptation to lead the way I tend to lead.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:42:46]:
Like how you started the episode about, like, your personality. Once you know it, then you can stop clicking.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:52]:
I can choose. I can be like, oh, that's not what they need right here. Yeah, I need this other thing. All right, so we gotta get moving here. That way we can get to the two of you. It's quite the seminar because I'm still not convinced Adrienne's A9. Okay, so, all right, so now we have agency, inward, outward, dyadic. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:10]:
You have a 1, an 8, and a 9. So what happens with bonding? So bonding. Think about the emotion that's tied with bonding now.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:17]:
Sadness and shame.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:18]:
Sadness and shame. Right. So Adrienne let's walk through this as we did with Agency. With Agency, we said an eight. Now, uploads anger. Have no problem showing it. Right. So whenever it comes to what happens when somebody uploads sadness or shame, you get these very artistic types.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:39]:
That's a nice way to put it.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:40]:
You get people that can see beauty.
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:42]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:43]:
Hold beauty.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:44]:
So. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:45]:
But also hold grief. Creative. Yes, absolutely. And so now you have on the Enneagram. What number is that gonna be, do you think? Any idea? Have you thought through this?
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:58]:
She's the Enneagram person.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:00]:
No, I'm not.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:01]:
Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:01]:
Don't put that on me. Some people are against the Enneagram.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:05]:
We don't have to worry about that now.
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:06]:
She's the peacemaker. Look at her work right now. Listen.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:10]:
Very inward focused right now.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:11]:
Is everybody good right now? So this is a four.
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:14]:
Okay, A four.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:16]:
I did not know that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:16]:
Yeah, I'm not a four.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:17]:
So that idea of think about what a four can do, A four has the ability to see the world is not the way it should be. And there's sadness with that. And they have no problem expressing that. No problem showing that, no problem letting that be known. And this is a beautiful thing. We would not have the music that we have without people being able to look at this world and feel a sense of the sadness, the brokenness, at the same time, seeing beauty in the midst of where nobody else can see.
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:45]:
Book of Psalms.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:46]:
That's exactly right. Boom.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:48]:
Exactly right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:49]:
It could have been a form.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:50]:
I don't know. It's possible.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:51]:
It's an interesting thing. We should go through the Bible.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:53]:
Through the Bible. I'm sure somebody's done that. So whenever somebody really uploads the emotion of sadness, wears it on their sleeve. And we all know people that. That can wear sorrow or sadness on their sleeve. Right. Well, what happens whenever somebody now has more of repressed kind of version of that? Right. Well, then they can become this extremely kind of helpful person where I want connection with you, but instead of.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:28]:
So a four can sometimes lead with their emotion.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:45:31]:
So four is outward. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:33]:
No, force inward. They're thinking always about themselves. I mean, looking inwardly to themselves. In the same way that. Now think about this. They want connection with others, but they're so focused and fixated on what's going on inwardly that that can create a little bit of attention. Because basically they can use emotion. They'll wear it outwardly as a way to try to draw you in.
Blaine Neufeld [00:46:01]:
Draw you in. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:03]:
Right. Which in a healthy way, can be beautiful. In an Unhealthy way can be very difficult because sometimes the emotion can actually push us away if we're not very careful. But a two is going to. They're going to kind of bottle that sadness and shame and only express it in the proper way. And instead, what they're going to do is they're going to serve you to such an extent, they're going to help you in such a way that that connects you. Right. Could be Blaine has some too.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:34]:
To him, there's no question. So how do I get this connection? How do I get this relationship? Oh, just become extremely helpful and then I'm needed, I'm necessary, and that draws you in.
Blaine Neufeld [00:46:44]:
You're hitting me here a little bit.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:46]:
Yeah. No, it makes total sense. Well, okay, so then what happens when somebody has a more kind of dyadic view of the world? Six.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:46:55]:
Three. Six or three?
Blaine Neufeld [00:46:57]:
Three.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:58]:
Very good. Because here's what you have picked up on. Nine. Three and six.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:47:03]:
Yeah. Well, I know I'm in that triangle.
Kevin Thompson [00:47:05]:
Yeah, I'll view it that way. So it's the three. So the three is, how do I get relationship with somebody? Oh, I go out and I earn it. I achieve. And they're going to need me. I'm going to prove myself worthy, valuable. They're gonna need me now in this moment. So a lot of people.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:47:24]:
Oh, the achiever.
Kevin Thompson [00:47:25]:
Yes. A lot of people who like the stage. Not all, but many people who like the stage can be threes. Because the thought is, I'm going to go out and prove myself so that you'll have to love me. Oh, how can you not love me?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:47:39]:
Interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:47:39]:
I mean, it's possible that some comedians are threes. Inconceivable. I don't know.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:47:44]:
But that's tricky. Cause if you love the stage, but yet you want to be a peacemaker, it's hard because you don't want to. And that's what I struggle with. I don't want to offend people, but then I want them to love me.
Kevin Thompson [00:47:53]:
Yes, yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:47:54]:
My head's exploding.
Kevin Thompson [00:47:56]:
All right, we got one more trio to cover. Then we're going to get a little bit more into detail of the two of you. Right, so let's end now with this idea of certainty. So what happens when certainty is your way and you now have this kind of inward focus? Right. So the vision is in on you of who you are, what's going on. You need some predictability. Well, that tends to be a five. And so a five now thinks to themselves, this world's uncertain.
Kevin Thompson [00:48:26]:
I need Certainty. Let me get the information, Let me read the study. I will become self sufficient and I will figure this out. Right. And so a 5 tends to be very reserved. There tends to be a whole lot more going on inside of a five than we realize. And every now, I don't know if you've ever been in a relationship with somebody and you kind of just think they're kind of aloof and just kind of standoffish and not. And you get in conversation with them and all of a sudden you tap into this well of information and warmth.
Kevin Thompson [00:48:57]:
I do all this kind of things.
Blaine Neufeld [00:48:59]:
I experienced the five the other day and I was just, oh, my gosh. Yes, this is amazing.
Kevin Thompson [00:49:03]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:49:03]:
Because the information. I had no idea.
Kevin Thompson [00:49:05]:
No, that's exactly right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:49:06]:
So they're inward.
Kevin Thompson [00:49:07]:
They're inward. So there's so much more going on than you can possibly imagine.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:49:11]:
Got it, Got it. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:49:13]:
To imagine now. So what they do is they take that fear again. They will only express it in the most socially acceptable way. They might be willing to say, hey, if we don't do this, here's what's going to happen. And that sounds dangerous, but in no way will they feel panicked or it will almost feel cold. Because to express this emotion too much is just not something they can do. Right. They're staying very, very inward in what's going on.
Kevin Thompson [00:49:38]:
Well, what happens when somebody really wears the emotion of fear on their sleeves? Well, this is the six. This is. They're always afraid of everything, and you know it. Because they're bringing that concern to you. They're letting you know. They're letting you know how many people might have died on this trail at some point. Transfer national Park. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:49:56]:
And so what is my primary pathway is going to be that of a six. That's where it is. And I'm always aware of my fear. I'm not embarrassed by it. I'm not shamed by it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:50:06]:
These are facts. Guys, you need to know.
Kevin Thompson [00:50:08]:
This is just like, how are you not afraid? Well, I don't understand.
Blaine Neufeld [00:50:13]:
Yeah, right, right.
Kevin Thompson [00:50:15]:
And then you have a group of people who now. So I have a dyadic view of life. So six has a more dyadic view. Okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:50:26]:
Not outward.
Kevin Thompson [00:50:27]:
But both. Yeah, but both. So I'm constantly aware of kind of what's going on. And then. So then you have a separate. So a 7 has an outward view. Right. So fear is there, but it's an outward view.
Kevin Thompson [00:50:42]:
But what's interesting is rather than wearing that on their sleeves or rather than putting that in a Box and only expressing it in the right way. What a 7 does is shifts that emotion to something else. So you can upload an emotion, you can down, basically upregulate it down, regulate it, or you shift it. You distract yourself into some kind of other action or behavior. And so like a nine. A nine will never really recognize their own anger because they shift that to peace. I just constantly have to be making peace. Well, if you got to work at what happens when you don't have peace, it really frustrates me.
Kevin Thompson [00:51:23]:
That's the anger that's underneath. Right. But they don't see it kind of in that way. And so like a two. A two. Rather than really feeling shame, they will shift that shame into help. So A2 is not going to express a lot of sadness. They're just going to be helping people.
Kevin Thompson [00:51:44]:
You know, it's really interesting to me is I've noticed this with my own life of sadness is not really something I express a lot of, but, man, I help a lot of people. And if you start tying that together. When are you helpful? Because I'm not helpful all the time.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:52:02]:
When are you helpful when you're sad?
Kevin Thompson [00:52:04]:
When I'm sad. And so I will upregulate fear. I'll down regulate anger. And I'm so uncomfortable, I won't even say I'm angry, but I will say I'm frustrated. But I'll only express it in the most socially acceptable way. You'll never really get me to say I'm sad, but you'll notice I'm helping people. And so I shift that emotion. And so let's take this idea.
Kevin Thompson [00:52:29]:
With fear, you can upregulate it. That's a six. You're wearing it. You can down regulate it. All right, that's a five. You're trying to take care of yourself or you can shift it. Well, what do people shift fear into? Fun. So, yeah, they will never recognize that they're afraid.
Kevin Thompson [00:52:52]:
And instead it's, what's the next new and exciting thing that's out there? Oh, let's do this and let's go do that. What are they doing? They're trying to predict, to produce some certainty in their life by what's the next exciting thing is. But never really experiencing the fear that's underneath that's actually driving it. And so what Siege has done with his PDP group down at UCLA is he's now given us the scientific underpinnings of what the Enneagram actually is all about. And these are nine pathways that actually all Nine of those in a wholeness experience should be available to any of us at any time. I should be able to sit here in this moment and go, what is demanded of me right now and have access to it. However, because of life, nature, nurture, attachment, all those kind of things, I am going to lean in certain ways. And then it could be that if I haven't done work myself, Siegel is going to say, that pathway can either be a playground from which you experience the whole human experience, or a prison in which you have no choice but to be what you are.
Kevin Thompson [00:54:04]:
And what he's trying to help us do is through understanding, is to turn from a prison into a pathway to where I'm not just. We all know people who. Their personality is a great gift to them in one setting, and in another setting, it destroys them. They don't have access to anything else. We get to have access to other things. Now, let's close by talking about, what does all this have to do with marriage? Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:54:29]:
Oh, yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:54:29]:
A couple things you need to understand yourself. You've heard me say before, when a couple says I do, what they often know the least about is the I. Well, if I don't know me and appreciate who I am and how God has created me and these gifts I bring to the table, how can I expect you to know me and to love me and to understand me? So I have to know myself, and then I have to know my partner. What are their primary pathways, and how can I appreciate that? How can that help me interpret some things that maybe don't go right? That literally, if I give Jenny a stat of death of whatever it is that she doesn't go, he just is constantly trying to kill my fun. What if she recognizes in that moment and fear really does impact him? He's trying to take care of. He's actually trying to love me right now. It doesn't feel like it, but he's actually trying to love me. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:55:25]:
What if. So Jenny's an agency inward, a one. There's a constant critic running in her brain. Well, when that spills out onto me and the kids, I need to recognize in that moment. All right, that one critique she just gave me, she's actually trying to make me better, and she gave me one. She's giving herself 100. And so instead of snapping back at that or getting defensive, to have empathy and go, oh, my goodness, that was kind of hard to take. What would it be like to have that in your head all the time and to have empathy and what can begin to Happen is we can, especially if the relationship is good.
Kevin Thompson [00:56:05]:
If the relationship is good, we can begin to challenge one another into these other pathways, invite each other into these things and notice what happens. There are some of these things that are going to come more natural to us. So you already talked about the triangle there, the three, six and the nine. Well, what do those share in common? Well, what they share in common is all three of those pathways have a dyadic attention to the world. And so while I'm a six, I understand a three or a nine pretty easily. And matter of fact, I can go to those places pretty easily. Why? Because my attention to the world doesn't have to change to enter into those expressions. I can become a peacemaker if I'm thinking in a healthy way.
Kevin Thompson [00:56:48]:
That's what's needed in this moment. I can make peace. My job demands that I'm a three. I have to stand on a stage in isolation in front of a crowd. But think about what that does. Think about what it does for you as a comedian is even as I'm aware of what's going on inside of me, I'm also keenly aware of what's going on outside. And I'm allowing them to impact me and I'm impacting them. And I don't even know how to do this job.
Kevin Thompson [00:57:10]:
I mean, I've got co workers that do this job and they're not three, six or nine. But I don't know how to do it apart from that. That's just how we approach the world. It's a great gift, but there are some downsides. What it means is I never really have the ability to truly focus on another person and not think about myself. I really struggle to truly think about myself and not think about another person. Right. And so the 3, 6 and 9 naturally kind of come close together.
Kevin Thompson [00:57:35]:
Well, think about. Also for me as a 6, 5 and 7 are pretty easy to understand because we're all in search of the same thing, which is certainty. So I'm a six wing five, so I'm a more reserved. I always wish I was a 6 Wing 7 could be a whole lot more fun to be around, but I'm not.
Blaine Neufeld [00:57:50]:
You're fun.
Kevin Thompson [00:57:51]:
Instead of having fun, I have a stat. That's the difference.
Blaine Neufeld [00:57:55]:
I love the information.
Kevin Thompson [00:57:56]:
That's the difference. That's because you have some five in you and so you have these things that become these natural kind of places. So even this idea of, of an 8 upload sphere, a 4 upload shame, a 6 uploads I mean, a 6 upload sphere. An 8 uploads anger. Well, I have some understanding of what it means to upload an emotion, even though I don't understand uploading anger, and I definitely don't understand uploading sadness. But I know what it's like to live in an uploaded state where you lead with that. And so actually, what that causes me to do, it causes me to struggle a little bit more with a 4 and an 8 to access those numbers, because those emotions I'm only used to expressing in certain ways.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:58:41]:
So then does that make it, like, more probable that you don't get along or it's easier, harder to get along with eights and whatever the four.
Kevin Thompson [00:58:51]:
With four it could be. I would say so for me. For me, generally, I would say I have a little bit. A tougher time getting along with four or understanding fours.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:59:02]:
What if you married a four?
Kevin Thompson [00:59:05]:
Yeah, that'd be a whole issue.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:59:06]:
That'd be tough.
Kevin Thompson [00:59:08]:
No, you'd have to learn the sympathy of what that looks like.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:59:10]:
Right. Maybe it would make you a better person.
Kevin Thompson [00:59:12]:
Here's where sixes and fours can struggle. A6 oftentimes has this theory of we're all the same.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:59:21]:
Who does four?
Kevin Thompson [00:59:22]:
A six. A six, man. We're all the same. Like, we're all struggling with the same stuff, and we're all the same. Think about a dyadic view, right? I'm viewing everybody kind of. Kind of the same way as I'm viewing myself. Well, A4 has this general thought of I'm so unique, I can't be understood. Right? Nobody can understand me or know my situation.
Kevin Thompson [00:59:44]:
And you know what? Both of those are true. The human experience is a common human experience, and yet each individual person is individual. So they're both true. It's just that we lean one way or the other. And since I lean so much to the only way I can preach, the only way I can do this podcast. Every marriage is so unique, but it's pretty universal. Think about how we started this. We're not that predictable.
Kevin Thompson [01:00:08]:
Well, that's going to tick a four off. They're going to click off in that moment. Wait a second. But I am predictable because you're not recognizing who I am now as a person if you miss that. And so, yes, I think that's one thing to understand is to begin to see. And I can look back as a boss, specifically, I don't think I've always led four as well because I haven't understood them. And so they've irritated me. I've Irritated them.
Kevin Thompson [01:00:33]:
And it's because I didn't have the compassion and the empathy to understand. Well, now what Siegel's giving me is some language to figure out.
Adrienne Neufeld [01:00:39]:
It's really cool.
Kevin Thompson [01:00:40]:
Oh, see, because here's what happens, especially as a pastor, a dyadic view of life. So I'm very keenly aware of what you're feeling, what you're experiencing, and it's impacting me. A4 now uploads their sadness. Well, I feel responsible for it.
Blaine Neufeld [01:00:53]:
Yeah, you burdened that.
Adrienne Neufeld [01:00:55]:
Yeah, I understand that. Like, when people are over and I'm like, are you uncomfortable? It's making me uncomfortable. Like, what do you need? A blanket, a drink? Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [01:01:02]:
So that's the dyadic view that right there. Jenny does not think. Jenny, who is as helpful as anybody, loves to host people all those things. Right. She is not going to start the night by going, hey, everybody, welcome to the house. By the way, there are three restrooms. There's this one little pocket, one around the corner, and this one over there. And by the way, if you really need privacy, you can go upstairs.
Kevin Thompson [01:01:23]:
Like, she's not thinking through all those things because she has an inward focus, even as she's hosting and being very helpful. Right. Well, I'm over here with a dyadic view going, all right, what are they feeling? All right, how can I make them feel more comfortable? What can I do even as I think about myself as well? Right. Well, someone who has more of an outward perspective isn't necessarily so much fixated on the people. They're fixated on the things. Things. Right. So.
Kevin Thompson [01:01:46]:
Oh, the game's on. Let's go. Look at that. Hey, this thing's out in the backyard. Right. Very outwardly focused, but not necessarily the people. And so you can begin to see how this, a tendency kind of works. So what happens when numbers are married to each other, when agency outward is married to certainty inward? What does that look like? Well, that's the next episode.
Kevin Thompson [01:02:08]:
Yes, that's what we're doing.
Adrienne Neufeld [01:02:09]:
What a TED Talk.
Kevin Thompson [01:02:11]:
How about that?
Blaine Neufeld [01:02:12]:
I love it.
Kevin Thompson [01:02:12]:
All right, Any closing thoughts or questions? That's the longest episode. We've only done three together, but that's the longest one we've done.
Blaine Neufeld [01:02:17]:
My brain popped at the end a little bit when you just started to say the numbers. But I was with you until then.
Adrienne Neufeld [01:02:22]:
In a good way or a bad way?
Kevin Thompson [01:02:24]:
In a great way. If that's too much, we apologize. Too much. Go back and re listen to the episode. Begin to think about it and don't hesitate. Post in the comments, send a message, all right, what are you? What are you? What do you think you are? What are you married to? And we might even go in and take a few couples and give some examples of. Here's some suggestions that we're going to make. But in the next episode, we're going to take Blaine and Adrienne, and I have some thoughts of what they are.
Kevin Thompson [01:02:48]:
They've said what they think they are. I kind of have some disagreements, so I'm going to make some assumptions, and I'm going to say, here are five strengths and five weaknesses, and we're going to see how much of this does it actually play out? What does it look like? But until next time, don't forget, marriage and family were never meant to be a game of chance. Let's change the odds. We'll see you next time.