Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hey, welcome back to Change the Odds, the podcast where marriage and family, we're never meant to be a game of chance. Kevin Thompson here. Adrienne Neufeld.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:05]:
Good morning.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:06]:
No, Blaine. No, no. So we're gonna do. Here's what we got going on. We're gonna do two episodes on Money. Episode one, it's me and you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:15]:
Yep.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:16]:
Episode two, me and Blaine.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:18]:
Interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:19]:
So be very careful. Cause since he gets to go second, he can treat you however want. So here's what we're doing.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:25]:
Adrienne.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:26]:
And he does.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:27]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:27]:
We're going through the guidebook, becoming friends, partners and lovers. Want Amazon. You can go there as well. And so we're teaching a class on Wednesday night. You and Blaine are doing a tremendous job, setting the climate, the tone, having.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:39]:
A great deal of fun. We are having fun with the people in the room.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:43]:
And then I get up, I give maybe a 30 minute talk, kind of intro the topic. They have table discussion, and then we do 30 more minutes and then we do Q and A. And so last night, the topic was money, money, money, money. Issue of money. That's exactly right. What is. John Gottman is gonna say, fights about money are the number one indicator of impending divorce. Every list I've ever seen has put money as either number one or number two, as the most contentious topic within a relationship.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:12]:
So we cannot underplay the importance of what this topic actually is and the value that it can bring to people's lives. And I'll be honest with you, I was fired up last night about this topic. I love it. I love the potential, the possibility that's in it. And so in this first session, we're gonna look at what I call a prescription for money misery. That if I were to tell you, all right, here's how I can guarantee you're going to fight about money, do these five things, and yet that is the very way that most people live by money. So that's what we're going to hear right now. We're going to go inside the worship center, bayside Granite Bay and hear a prescription for money misery.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:48]:
I want us to think just for a minute, if we were to create a prescription for how to make money a miserable topic in your life. How would I do that if I wanted to? Just write a prescription.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:03]:
All right?
Kevin Thompson [00:02:03]:
If you will operate in this way, money will be miserable for you. Here's the way I would do it. Number one, I'd say, don't have a plan. No plan. We're just gonna wing it, see how it goes. Number two, only Talk about money when something goes wrong and feel insecure while you're doing so. Number three, assume everything will work out, but don't determine what that actually means. So never figure out what your long term goals actually are.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:36]:
Number four, don't be a team. And number five, don't know your numbers. If you will operate that way whenever it comes to money, it guarantees a tension, a struggle, a frustration. And here's what concerns me now in the job that I do, the amount of writing I do, the messages I receive, the consideration I take whenever it comes to marriage is this is the way most of us handle money in our relationships. This is the very plan, the very prescription I would write to make it miserable is the very plan many of us actually live out in our day to day lives. Let's just kind of walk through it and consider this. Don't have a plan. Think about this.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:21]:
If I were to write you a check, I'm not going to. If I were to write you a check for $10,000 right now, what would you do with it? Do you know? Is there an obvious plan? Here's exactly what happens with that $10,000. And this goes here and that goes there. And this amount is what we can do here. And there's no debate, no real discussion. You're already on the same page of what's going on because there is a system already in place. Or if you had that $10,000, would there be now this great debate that would take place. So only talk about money.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:55]:
Whenever things go wrong, think about this, that generally speaking, whenever it comes to these conversations about money, we do not have regular conversations about money. And therefore the only time we talk about it is when money is tight, when an expense happens that we didn't expect in some way. When we're frustrated by how our spouse is spending money, no spouse ever walks in and goes, honey, I'm so disappointed in myself. I spent money in a way that I shouldn't have. Can you please reprimand me for that? We need to talk through it, but it does. Hey, I got the notification today on the phone about the credit card. Help me understand what's going on here. And whenever we do actually have conversation about it, that conversation so often kind of breeds our own insecurity.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:42]:
So it's an interesting thing whenever it comes to money is we assume that we should be knowledgeable in this area. We do very little work to actually learn the skills of how to properly manage our money. And so when conversations happen in a gross oversimplification, conversations Happen. He gets mad and she gets sad. And it just kind of breeds our insecurity to such an extent that if you view money differently than I breathe, I view money, then I'm so insecure about it, I can't take the difference. And I almost feel like, ashamed the fact that there is a difference here. So I want to shame you to make myself feel better. So assume that everything will just work out, but don't determine your long term goals.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:26]:
So if you ask the average person, hey, whenever you have enough money, first of all, how much would that be? But whenever you have enough money, what is it that you want to do in retirement? Or what is it that you want to do in the next season of life? And what they will say is, oh, I just want to have freedom to do whatever it is that I want to do. Okay, that's great. Everybody says that. Everybody says, I want freedom to do whatever it is that I want to do. But you follow up with this question, all right, what do you want to do? And they have very little answers. Some will say travel, and that's understandable. That's great. But there's no real concrete.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:58]:
All right, here's how I kind of want to spend my days. Here's where I would like to spend more time and have more freedom to experience these things. It is this generic, I want to do whatever it is I want to do without any reflection of what does that actually mean? Okay, don't be a team. 90% of couples have one person that handles the finances in the relationship. Now, there's nothing wrong with the practical kind of nature of one person kind of handles the day to day concept. We're gonna look a little bit tonight at how Jenny and I handle it. Jenny handles all of the finances for her business. And so whenever it comes to our personal kind of family and home life, I handle all of that.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:40]:
So there's nothing wrong with a practical. Who's paying the bills? Who's making sure the taxes are done? Here's where the danger comes in for 90% of the couples. All of the weight of the finances and the knowledge and the understanding of the finances is only on one. Now think about what happens. What happens when that spouse dies or gets sick? Well, the other one has to play all this catch up to figure out what's going on or what happens if money does come in. And now there's this disagreement of how to handle it. And there's not this sense of unity in how we're moving forward. And then finally don't Know your numbers.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:20]:
You ready for a little quiz in your head? In your head now. One thing, whenever it comes to finances that we get in trouble with is because math is involved. And remember, I'm not going to be a math expert at all. The only math I had to take in college was how do you move the decimal point over to figure out 10%? That was it, right? Pastoral ministry major, can you move the decimal point? That's all the math you got to do. But because math gets involved, sometimes we try to become so precise that we miss the big picture. I want to look big picture here tonight, not the dollars and cents. I want to be comfortable with rounding. So generally speaking, I want to give you a four question quiz that in your mind I want to see.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:05]:
Can you answer all four questions accurately within your own life? Here are the four questions. What's your annual income? Do you know it? What you as a couple make your actual income? What is your savings rate on a monthly or annual basis? What percentage of that income do you actually save? You can only credit yourself positively if there is an actual. So if you save nothing, don't go, oh, I know that one. That doesn't work. What is the month and year that you will be completely debt free month and year? For most of us, that's when is your house going to get paid off? And then fourth, what is your current net worth? Can you confidently answer those four questions? A vast majority of people cannot. Back in Arkansas, whenever, I would always do staff reviews and so I would ask our administrator whenever I was going in to do a staff. So I only had 20 people that worked for me. And so I would set aside a week, I would do these reviews and so I'd always have the administrator bring me before I was going in to do the review of whoever this person was, student pastor, music person, whoever, they would bring me their compensation sheet and so it would show their full compensation.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:33]:
So the top line would be, here's your base salary. And then it would show everything else that the church paid. The insurance and the 401k, the retirement, the bonuses that every year we would either do raises or bonuses if things were financially in a positive place. So I would have this sheet right in front of me. Well, I got in the habit for some reason of just beginning to ask the question. We would get into finances and I would ask the staff member, what do you make a year? Most of them didn't know. I mean, they knew a range, but they would give me enough. They'd say, I make 45,000 a year.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:09]:
No, you don't. That's not what we pay you. It's not?
Kevin Thompson [00:10:16]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:16]:
And I'd look, I'd say, yeah, no, we paid you that three years ago, but two years ago we gave you a raise of this percent and last year we gave you a raise of this percent and your actual income is this. And then I would just turn the sheet around and I'd show them and I'd walk them through everything the church actually paid on their behalf to show that their total compensation, many times, if they thought they were getting paid 45, let's say they were actually making 48, by the time we got down to total compensation, they were actually many times making 65 to $68,000 a year. And they had no idea. Well, think about this. If you and I don't actually know our numbers, what chance do we have on this issue? How is it that we're actually going to be able to process through what's going on? So get this. 50% of couples, according to Ramit Sethi, 50% of couples do not know their income. 90% of couples do not know their level of debt. Okay, I don't want to oversimplify this in any means, but here is what I think is a very simple, understandable concept.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:25]:
If you don't know your numbers, there's no way you can make money, be financially peaceful in your relationship. Unless you just live in denial. And then it's a pseudo piece that we actually have to deal with facts. We have to figure these things out. Which is going to demand from us now a little bit of uncomfortableness because, let's face it, we all approach money from a radically different concept based on our family of origin. We have these biases in our minds. And money means one thing to one person and something else to somebody else. And some of us, because it's math that's involved, are very uncomfortable because we don't do math very well.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:02]:
Others of us, because it demands so much from us and it can create such an insecurity because we don't understand. I don't know what an IRA is. And a 401K. And what's the difference between a 401 and a 403? And a health savings account, a health reimbursement account. How does all those things really work? And there's all these anachronyms and all this language and all this pressure that sometimes it's just easier to kind of stick our head in the sand and go on about life and hoping everything's.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:28]:
Going to be okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:29]:
And while that might get you through today, it's not going to get you the life that you actually desire or want. And so my encouragement to you on this issue is let's be willing to get just a little uncomfortable. One of the authors I was reading this past week said, the average American would rather suffer unimaginable amounts of predictable chaos than be uncomfortable for 30 seconds with their spouse. And some of that's understandable. You have these pains and these traumas, and there's a struggle that's there. But what would it look like if we were actually able to lean in and to say to our husband or wives, husband or wife, if you want to complicate your finances, that's a great.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:29]:
Way to do it.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:32]:
But what would it look like if a man looked at his wife and said, hey, honey, I just want to confess I'm really insecure on this issue of money, and I feel like I should be the provider, and I really don't know all the information. And what would it look like if a wife could look at her husband and say, hey, I just haven't done the research on this that I probably need to do, and I'm not certain about this. And this was always a very touchy topic in my home growing up, and I just remember how angry my dad would get around tax time, and I just want to stay a thousand miles away from it. So. So I'm insecure about these topics. What would it look like if we actually began to lean in and say, okay, here's my insecurity, here's what I'm uncomfortable about, but now I'm ready to dig a little bit deeper. Now, here's what I want on this specific session. I want us to live somewhere in between kind of two basic realities.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:32]:
In that I don't want us to be overwhelmed by guilt, and I don't want us to feel any sense of shame if we struggle financially and in a room of this size and those watching online and those listening to the podcast, there's going to be a good number of us who struggle financially. And I don't want us walking out of here feeling like failures because thinking to ourselves that if we don't have money right then our marriage is a sham and we're not living up to the lives that God actually wants us to. So I don't want that. But at the same time, I don't want us kind of sticking our head in the sands and now in some ways, downplaying the progress that we can actually make. If we would just be willing as a couple to lean into a little bit of discomfort, to confront the brutal facts, whatever they are, and then to get around us, the resources and to grow in the knowledge that we need to begin to make positive steps forward. I remember some time back, I was meeting with just a saintly gentleman. I mean, just a prince of a guy, love him. And we were having this discussion and been married for decades.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:47]:
And with a tear in his eye, he began to talk about the shame that he felt because he and his wife had just always struggled financially. And I looked at him and I.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:58]:
Said, look, here's the thing.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:01]:
Let's say marriage, hypothetically, were made up of 10 primary things. Maybe it's more than that, maybe it's less than that. I don't know what it is you'd say, kevin, isn't that your job? Well, okay, well, let's say it's 10. I said, let's start looking off at the things that you've gotten right. You love each other. Well, you had these kids that are.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:23]:
Great that love you as well.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:24]:
You love Jesus. You've established this faith. You impact others, other people. You've had these careers in which you've made such an impact and a legacy of all these people. You've created all these friends. And I just listed thing after thing after thing after thing after thing. I said, okay, when it comes to money, you haven't handled it the way you wish you would have. Okay, so you get a 90%.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:49]:
That's good enough. You get an A. It's not what you wish it would have been. And you wish that area would have been better. But don't be overwhelmed by guilt because you, like many other people, struggle in this area. Don't be shamed by it. But at the same time, here's what I don't want you to do tonight, is to walk out of here tonight and go, well, we just don't do that well, and then just hope it turns out right. Because there has never been a time in which specifically a church, in this church, specifically has so many resources and so many ways that we can help you and assist you.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:27]:
And part of it is this night. Part of it is the guidebook and all the resources that are in that. We have financial peace that's going on right now. We have budget coaching that begins to take place. We have some very kind people within the church who, in marriage mentoring who'd be more than happy to sit down with you and help you and to assist you in all the conversations that need to take place. There's so many ways to get headed in a right direction if you're currently not in a good place. So don't be shamed, but also don't be apathetic. Lean in now with this curiosity.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:59]:
Let me ask you another question. I'm full of questions tonight. If your relationship and the health of your relationship was solely defined by how well you and your spouse talk about money, what would be the state of your current connection? So let's narrow down your relationship to just finances alone and say it's a sort of litmus test here. And we're gonna say, however healthily we talk about money, that's how healthy our relationship actually is. If I were to follow you over the next month and to see how you and your spouse interacted on the concept of money, how well do you do it? And the fact is, most couples, there would be very few conversations, and the conversation would actually only begin to take place if something went wrong. So the very first thing I want us to change is that let's begin to learn how do we talk with each other about money without one of us becoming mad and the other of us becoming sad, without it creating a division or a tension between us. But instead, it becomes an empowerment to where it feels like we're. We're on the same page, we're moving forward here.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:16]:
Do you recognize that this issue of money, once you get it into a good spot, once you get a good system and a process and you kind of get on the same page, this thing that divides so many people can actually be a conversation that's a great deal of fun, that's encouraging, that the very thing that some people run from, you can actually start to run too. Jenny and I, over these last couple of nights, have just had a lot of conversation on this, because the last thing I want to do is to be hypocritical. And I don't want to project something here that I'm actually not experiencing at home. Jenny and I, we were going for a walk the other night, and I said, hey, Jenny, I got four questions for you. If you can't answer them properly, I have to change my entire speech for Wednesday night. No pressure. What's our income? What month and year will we be debt free? What is our savings rate? What is our net worth? And she went, four in a row. Exactly right.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:16]:
And the conversation that we had then from that was one that reminded me why we're so in love, which made me look back in gratitude for some of the things that we've experienced and we've gone through, maybe look forward in hope and opportunity that if we continue in the same direction, if God empowers us to live the lives that we're living and to have the experiences that we're having, there's such great hope of a day that is to come. And yet some of those things we get to experience right now, we're not saving everything for the future. And literally, this discussion that drives so many couples apart, I think for us, so often drives us together. And so what is it that prevents us from having these meaningful money conversations? I think it is a couple of things. One that we often don't look, think about is this money isn't always about money. So years ago, had a couple came in, I've told this story here before. They came in and sat down to talk with me. And so I'm friends with the wife and the husband I had not met before.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:30]:
And so he comes in and he looks at me and he says. He sits down. Literally, the first thing that he says is, hey, what gives you the authority to be here? And she was embarrassed. And I said, no, no, that's a great question. Like, you've made an appointment with me. He has no idea who I am. What does give me any right to sit here? I'm 30 years younger than y'all are. What do I know? And I said, well, you know, I've written some books in college.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:57]:
I had a minor in family psychology and pastoral ministry, and I've been doing this for a long period of time. I've written these books. I have this website. I have, you know, this is my email list. Here's my credibility. And then we begin to dive into it. He was kind of appeased, and we began to kind of dive into it. And they were constantly fighting over money.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:14]:
And he was retired. She was still working. And the way it would go is she would get home from work after spending some time with her friends, and he would immediately begin to go over, hey, the credit card notified me of this, and it notified me of this. And she felt like, I'm working all day long, he's not working. I'm working all day long. And by the time I finally get home, I just keep on getting punched over and over and over again. And so I just sat back and listened to everything. And I finally looked at him and I said, hey, let me tell you what I think is going on.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:47]:
I don't think you're really that upset about money. I think it's the only way you know to protest what you're currently experiencing in your relationship. And the fact of the matter is, you're actually lonely. And she goes off to work, and you no longer get to do that. You've chosen that, and there's some good things about that. But you're not around people anymore, and she's gone, and she's around people, and she's doing all the things. And then after work, she really doesn't want to come home and get badgered by you. And so suddenly she finds all these other activities that she can go do.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:18]:
And there's church activities, and there's family here, and there's this and there's that. And the whole time that she is now off work not seeing you. You're watching her, you're tracking her. You know when she could have been home, and now she's not home. And you're becoming more and more frustrated and disappointed and depressed about it. Yet whenever she walks in the door, you don't have the courage to say, hey, I miss you. I love you. I want to spend time with you.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:40]:
You have no idea how to communicate your emotions like that. And yet what you do know how to do is to show up and say, you shouldn't have spent this, and you shouldn't have done that. And as you're yelling about her about money, that is actually your heart crying out of loneliness. I said, what am I saying there that's wrong? And with sadness, he said, no, I think that's it. And I said, and that's my authority to be here. I can be sarcastic. And I showed them their dynamic was not about money. It was about a lack of an emotional connection.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:17]:
And the only way they knew how to talk about it was via money. One of the first things you have to begin to ask yourself is, do we have a true emotional connection that creates a foundation upon which all of these skills, like learning how to handle money. Now rest, because if we don't, you can learn all the skills you want to learn. But if you don't have that emotional connection, those skills are going to not help you in any way. In the next session, two sessions from now, we're going to look at the idea of communication. And so you've heard me talk about this before, that I can teach you how to communicate well. But if all you do is learn the skill of communication, but you don't create an emotional connection, that just simply means the divorce is gonna be much more peaceful because you're gonna know how to communicate. But you're still gonna feel disconnected.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:12]:
If you and I have an emotional disconnection, then money is gonna be a struggle. And that emotional disconnection is going to express itself as a money problem when it's really not a money problem. And so you have to first create this emotional connection where you're on the same page. But even if you have that, money can still be a very difficult discussion for another reason, and that is this money means different things to different people. And so what money means to you is not necessarily what money means to me. And while we're using the same words, those words are symbolizing other things. If we're not aware that there are multiple ways to view money and that the way our spouse views money is different than how we view money. And that difference can actually be a strength.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:01]:
As long as we empathize with each other and understand where each other is coming from, actually, the differences that we have on the topic can be a great benefit. But as long as I just assume you view money the way I view money, then we're going to have these disagreements and really not understand what's going on. And so if you look at the bottom of page 49 on the guidebook, I have just a couple different ways that you can view money. Just a different perspective by which you can see it. So of these four, I want you to pick out two. Which one's the primary one for you and which one's a secondary for you. And then your spouse can do the same thing. So I'm going to give you several options.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:44]:
One is some people see it as security. Money means security. For others, it means opportunities or risk. For others, it means power or status. And then for others, it means freedom or pleasure, Social Security, opportunity or risk. Power or status, Freedom or pleasure. So I want you just within your own concept, figure out what does money primarily mean for you. So for me, I would say it primarily means security.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:28]:
That's me.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:29]:
Even though I don't have a great.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:30]:
Insecure, I don't think family background, maybe it's my own personality. All right, an enneagram 6, right. I see. I see danger everywhere. And so this is the way I maybe abate some of that. I think secondarily, I view money not as status. Status, I don't think appeals to me very much. But I do see it as power.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:55]:
I don't want you to have power over me. And so I think money now prevents some of that from happening. I think for Jenny, and we haven't talked about this, and Jenny, why don't.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:06]:
You yell it out. I'm kidding.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:09]:
I think for Jenny, either primarily or secondarily, for Jenny, it means freedom. Jenny likes freedom. She doesn't want to be tied down. She wants options. And so that means freedom for her. So think about what this means in the same way that we've talked about in previous concepts of head, heart, and gut, that we're gonna lead primarily with one, even though all of them are important. So let's say I lead primarily with security. Money means security to me.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:37]:
Let's say for Jenny. I don't know if this is true. I should have figured it out. But let's say for Jenny that she primarily sees it as freedom. I want freedom now to experience what it is that I actually want to experience. Okay? Those two things are interrelated, but they're not universally the same. Freedom might ask for some more spending of money to exercise that freedom, Whereas security might put more of an emphasis on continually saving because you can never quite have enough. Well, okay, as long as we recognize that we're coming from different places and there's actually benefits to both of those, then the differences we can lean on and leverage into a way forward.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:20]:
But if we don't understand that, then Jenny maybe could get frustrated of, why does Kevin want to save all this money? What are we even saving it for? And I might look at her and think, does she not care about our security? And so it's not uncommon at all for one spouse to view security as primarily and the other to see money as opportunity. And so the spouse that sees security as the primary aspect can look at the spouse that sees it as opportunity and want to kind of restrict them because they think they will foolishly spend all their money well, not knowing that even as they're restricting them, that they are hindering their spouse from the very thing they think money is all about. And that the truth of the matter is there are limits to how much money you can accumulate without some element of risk. And so whenever this couple kind of merges together and recognizes that security and risk mold together greatly. And I can protect you from being foolish now. You can protect me now from being too conservative and safe and hindering some of the money that I can make, we can leverage that now for the positive outcome. But if there's any form of distrust or disrespect, if we haven't built those kind of foundational qualities for this emotional connection, then those differences can be destructive. Because rather than appreciating and respecting the differences, we can become skeptical of Them and they can begin to drive us apart.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:48]:
So I want us just to have a conversation around the tables of a very simple question. What is the primary thing that money means to you? And looking back to your family of origin, where do you think that came from? How did your family of origin handle money? Did y'all talk about it or not? So I grew up in the house of an accountant and a teacher. And so there were conversations that happened about money. Not a ton, but probably far more than what would happen in other homes. As a kid, I knew how much my parents made. I understood some of the aspects of what they were spending money on. I would always hoard birthday money, cash and all that. And so, you know, back then, before debit cards and things like that, that we'd be in the living room and dad be like, hey, let's go get some ice cream.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:34]:
Yeah, let's go. Well, we can only do so if I can borrow money from you. Okay, I got cash.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:40]:
You don't have cash. I got cash.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:42]:
It's 5% interest. And let's go get ice cream. And so I was a part of the money process within the house of what was going on. Well, maybe you came from a house where it just wasn't discussed that if money came up, dad would explode, mom would cry. Okay, that's going to have an impact on you. So how does that impact how you view money today? It's not wrong how you view money. The issue is it's just one way in the midst of a much larger picture.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:11]:
Okay, and we're back. All right, Adrienne, let me just walk through to remind you what we just heard. Basic outline. And then what I want you to do is I want you to tell me what's the one thing that really stuck out to you of. Oh, man, Blaine and I don't do that. We need to improve or, man, that's something. That's great as far as we go. So the prescription for money misery.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:31]:
A five step plan of how to be miserable about money. One is you just don't have a plan.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:35]:
Just wing it.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:36]:
See how things happen, only talk about it. Number two, when things are going wrong and then feel insecure when doing so. So one spouse will be like, I don't know enough about it to have a conversation. And the other one might get really angry at being questioned because really that's covering an insecurity. They're not comfortable about the decision.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:53]:
Here's the truth. If you make a decision that you're.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:55]:
Comfortable with, it doesn't bother you to be questioned.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:58]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:59]:
You're confident about the decision, so the anger actually shows a sign. Number three, assume everything will work out, but never determine what your long term goals actually are. Number four, don't be a team. Number five, don't know your numbers. So of that prescription for money misery. Right. What kind of came to mind with how you and Blaine handle your finances?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:20]:
Well, there's kind of two that stick out to me. One is, don't be a team because I am not involved in the finances.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:27]:
Okay, there we go. So is money a point of contention for y'all?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:32]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:32]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:33]:
Not at all.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:34]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:34]:
Why is that? What would be the secret to your cause? I think there is something important here that there isn't just one way to do life.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:41]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:41]:
True. It's not like I can come in and say, here's how it has to be, and if you follow the Kevin Thompson way, you'll be great. And if you don't, then you won't. Cause here you're not.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:51]:
Exactly. Well, it's. Yeah, no, he takes care of it, and I trust that he's doing it well. Every so often I'll be like, do we have money? He's like, yeah. I'm like, cool, okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:01]:
That's all you need.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:02]:
I'll check in. I'm like, are we in debt? He's like, no. I'm like, all right. But yeah, he does it.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:08]:
Okay, so here's.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:09]:
Here's my challenge for you. You don't want to challenge. You're like, I'm challenged enough. I got three small kids.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:17]:
I deal with Blaine. I gotta get enough. Oh, man. I'm gonna. Let's view this from two sides. Let's view it first of all from your side of one. I do think, let's say something happens to Blaine.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:28]:
Oh, that is something that's constantly in the back of my head.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:32]:
Are you setting yourself and your kids up for success?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:35]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:35]:
Are you on the same page? So you've learned, you've grown, you now. No. So there actually is some risk that's here that now you have a loving, supporting community, people would help you. I remember when I was little, my dad was an accountant.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:49]:
So was my dad.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:50]:
Oh, how about that?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:51]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:51]:
Oh, look at that.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:52]:
Okay, so two dads with no personality. No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. So. But he used to tell me whenever I was little, he had a business partner and he would say, kevin, if anything ever happens to me, that's the guy you call my dad.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:05]:
Do the same thing. He's like you call this guy. This guy will know where this is. Save, save, save, save, save. And that's what he told us.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:11]:
That was it? Yep, that was it. So you do have a loving community, no doubt.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:15]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:16]:
However, I do think there's a risk there that really isn't necessary. You're a very capable person. You're intelligent. You know what's going on. I feel like this could be an area that may be of your own personal insecurity you're checking out of that you really don't need to. Now what? I'm not saying that you have to come in and you have to run the finances, and I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is some of these questions you need to know. What's your annual income?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:47]:
Good question.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:48]:
You don't know. Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:49]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:50]:
So what's the, you know, what is.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:53]:
Your current net worth?
Kevin Thompson [00:35:54]:
Don't know. Okay, so these are the big, important issues that I don't think it's fair for Blaine to carry the full load of all of this without partnership or help. Cause imagine it this way.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:08]:
What if he.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:09]:
And so help me, if he does, then we're gonna have to stop shooting this episode and we're gonna have to find a new job. What if he viewed parenting this way? Nope, Adrienne doesn't.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:21]:
Oh, oh, oh, oh, yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:22]:
What are your kids names? I don't know. What are they? I don't know.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:24]:
That'd be horrible.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:25]:
I don't know. We're not gonna do that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:27]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:28]:
Right now it's very fair. In a marriage, in a relationship, we divvy things up. Have no problem with that. I have no problem with. Blaine does the majority of this, and you trust him and it's great. However, I don't think we can fully check out of this. Finances are too important because it's not just about the money. It really is about what ultimately is the life that we want to create together.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:53]:
And he is bringing a great gift to you. And it's great to hear, but I think you can engage in that in a way that you feel more capable and competent. And I think you're unfairly for yourself checking out of this in a way that you don't necessarily have to. Now, I get that life is the last thing you need is another responsibility. So hear me whenever I say this. I am not saying you need more day to day responsibilities. What I'm saying is you probably need more quarterly conversations.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:20]:
Yeah, that's not a bad idea.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:22]:
We know what's going on, and then you feel capable. And so if something does happen, you have some. But it's not just about if something does happen, because there's another side to that. So that's where I think you're cheating yourself in this. The other side is, I do think in part, you're cheating him in that this is a team sport. And in this area, he's playing like an individual, which, let's face it, many guys like, we like to provide this role. We see ourselves as providers. So there's good things.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:50]:
However, what's happening is your team is lacking. What is your area of expertise and background and perspective and understanding.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:57]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:58]:
So your team is just solely running on what Blaine thinks is right, which works well, but it's incomplete.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:05]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:05]:
There's things that you can bring to the table.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:07]:
It's true.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:08]:
And so what would it be like now for y'all to. And basically, I think here's a prescription I'm gonna write for y'all is, let's next date night, make sure there's a babysitter, Y'all are gonna go to dinner, and an activity of some sort, a walk, something where there can be conversation. Right. And let's talk about some big picture stuff, because I could be wrong. But here's my guess. If you're not aware financially of what's going on, have y'all had discussions of, hey, one day, if we get to retirement, here's what's important for me, here's what I want, here's the life that I want to create. I mean, have you talked about things of where do you want to live? No, actually, what do you want to do? At what age do you hope that maybe, maybe y'all will have more time? What are the dreams that are basically happening? And that's whenever we talk about partnership here. Partnership is about money.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:10]:
It is about parenting. It is about, you know, knowing who your kid's teacher is and is the homework done or are the bills paid? And. Yeah, but partnership ultimately is what kind of life do we want to create together?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:20]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:21]:
And my fear is whenever I hear a couple and look, Gottman says it might be Godman, it might be Rama Sethi as well. He says that 90% of couples have just one spouse that handle this. So I have no problem with one spouse handling the day to day. That's what I do in our house. Jenny does her business finances, so I do our personal finances. But we are a team in the big picture of what's going on, because ultimately we have to influence each other with the Life that we desire and what it is that we want. And so my challenge for you, I'm gonna challenge Blaine as well.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:58]:
Yeah, challenge.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:00]:
I'll come up. How about this, man? You're gonna love this. I'll come up with a one sheet of a date.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:06]:
I'm gonna plan y'all's date.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:08]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:08]:
I'm gonna plan y'all's next date. But I want it to be fun and exciting and literally kind of dreamy of what is it that we want to do?
Kevin Thompson [00:40:16]:
Cause here's the problem.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:18]:
Until you and Blaine begin to dream together of some of the things you want to accomplish later in life, you're not gonna have any filter to figure out right now. Is that thing on Amazon meaningful to me or not? Is it important or not? Because without a long term vision, then it does just become, well, let's just spend whatever we have going on right now. But I think there's a better way. I love this.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:45]:
That's a good point.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:46]:
Was there something else or did we already talk about it?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:49]:
Well, it was just like, know the numbers. Cause I don't. I don't know the numbers. I'm also not able to financially contribute to the family, which maybe is a part of the reason I've checked out. Because I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. That could be why.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:01]:
But you do. I think that's a very important point. So because of Canadian citizenship right now.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:07]:
Yeah. We're on a visa, yada, yada yada.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:09]:
We're not allowed.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:10]:
So I get that. But here's the thing. It's not this idea that Blaine's earning money and you're not. It doesn't work that way. Oh, we're doing.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:18]:
We're in this together.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:19]:
He can't do his job without you doing yours.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:21]:
Well, that's true.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:22]:
You were in full contribution.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:24]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:24]:
So I never have liked the concept of he earns the money, she doesn't. Or I mean, well, maybe for one reason is Jenny at times in our marriage has earned more money than I have, so.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:35]:
Oh, breadwinner.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:37]:
It makes more sense for me to.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:38]:
Run it a different way. But it's not that. All of it's our money, all of that. There's no such thing as one person that earned the money. Whenever you're in this again, whenever you're in this together as a team, you provide him the opportunity to go earn the paycheck and so you are fully contributing. So that's a great point. I wonder, have you unintentionally kind of checked out in that way. I think so, because of that, but I think there's a better way.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:05]:
But one thing we talked about in the discussion is I neither want you to be overwhelmed by guilt for how we have handled things, but I also don't want you to downplay the possibility. Hey, there's a better way we can improve this in some way. We've talked about this before, but one thing we talked about in the session is what does money mean to you? If I'm not mistaken, it was security for you. Right. So I think by being a little bit more involved and aware and really feeling like you are contributing not just financially, but contributing to the process that we're using, I think that can actually bring more security instead of just, I trust. I hope he's taking care of this. Well.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:42:48]:
Yeah. That is the other risk. It's like, what if he's not?
Kevin Thompson [00:42:51]:
Yeah. And here's the sad story that I'm keenly aware of. You got a great guy. He's not taking advantage of you. Things are great. There are other people that. They have run their relationship the same way you have, and the rug's been pulled out from under.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:07]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:07]:
It's a terrifying.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:08]:
That would be a horrible.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:09]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:10]:
No. Terrifying kind of concept.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:12]:
So.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:12]:
I like it.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:13]:
Money, misery.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:15]:
You're living it.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:15]:
I didn't even know it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:17]:
I'm living it. Well.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:19]:
Well, hey, stay with us for next week as Blaine is gonna be here and tell the rest of the story.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:25]:
See what he has to say.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:26]:
Well, here's what I wonder. Predict it right now.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:28]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:29]:
Do you think he wants more of your involvement or not?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:31]:
I honestly don't know.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:32]:
Yeah. A lot of guys would say no.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:34]:
I have asked him. I'm like, you should make me a budget. And he's like. And then we just. I don't. He doesn't. I don't know. We haven't.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:40]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:41]:
I don't think he's like, you don't need one.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:42]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:42]:
Yeah. I think budgets are overblown, to be honest with you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:46]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:46]:
Things I'm not actually.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:48]:
Things I'm not actually supposed to say out loud. Right. Jenny and I have never had a budget as far as that goes, but it really is. You autom the big things, and then whatever's left over is left over.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:58]:
Well, that's a budget.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:59]:
It is kind of, but not the specific.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:01]:
But you're not saying, like, you get $100 for this and $100 for that.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:04]:
Yeah. Not that. No, it really is. Are we giving 10%? Are we saving 20%? All right. The mortgage, the bills, the big expenses, all that's done.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:15]:
And then whatever you.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:16]:
However you spend it, doesn't matter then I don't really care how that happens. It's a much easier way, I think.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:21]:
Yeah. I'm curious to see what he'll say.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:24]:
Yeah, I think. I don't know. Some guys do not want more involvement because they don't want accountability. And they like the freedom. I'm not saying this is Blaine. They just like the freedom of I get to do it however I want to, which I totally get.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:37]:
Yeah. Let's face it.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:39]:
I joked with Jenny, whenever the kids were little, there were ways that when she was on a business trip, it was actually easier because I was in charge.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:49]:
Yeah, well, you hear a lot of wives say that too. They're like, oh, they come home and they mess everything up. The kitchen was clean, the bed was made.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:56]:
Yeah. So there is a little bit of now you have to give and take. And now there has to be discussion. And now maybe here's the thing. There's no friction in this system.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:45:06]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:06]:
For your involvement actually increases the possibility.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:45:10]:
Right. I could come and be like, I think you're doing this way wrong.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:13]:
But I think that chance of uncomfortableness in the short term is worth what could be some long term benefits to you, to him, and to Team Neufeld and what's going on.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:45:25]:
Team Neufeld.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:26]:
I love it. You like that? I like that we're making you into a power couple. That's what we're doing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:45:29]:
Finally.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:30]:
All right.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:30]:
Hey, thanks for joining us.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:31]:
We'll see you next time for part number two of the money talk.