Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hey, welcome back to Change the Odds, the podcast where marriage and family were never meant to be a game of chance. My name is Kevin Thompson, here today with my friend Jim Shepherd. Jim, good to see you.
Jim Sheppard [00:00:07]:
How are we doing, bud?
Kevin Thompson [00:00:07]:
Yeah, doing well. Thank you so much. We're at the Thrive Conference.
Jim Sheppard [00:00:10]:
Whoa.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:11]:
It's what we do. And some craziness that's going on.
Jim Sheppard [00:00:13]:
Super bowl week.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:14]:
That's exactly right. So that brings you to town. And so, Jim, so your. Your expertise. I don't know if you ever set out to have this to be your expertise, but you're kind of one of the leading experts on generosity in America. And so how. How do you get. You don't get a PhD in generosity.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:31]:
How does that actually happen? What brought you to this place where you really now feel it's one of your great missions in life, of inviting people into this life of generosity? How do you get there? How do you get to that point?
Jim Sheppard [00:00:44]:
Well, short version, Kevin, is I became a Christ follower as an adult. I was raised in the church, but I didn't become a Christ follower until I was 28. Right. And it wasn't long after I became a Christ follower that God started working on me and my wife about generosity and stewardship, about giving to the church. And so that journey started with us early on. You know, what I would say is I became a Christ follower in 1983, started becoming a generous Christ follower in 1985. I tithed for the first time. We tithed for the first time as a family in May of 1987.
Jim Sheppard [00:01:21]:
And we've never looked back.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:23]:
Now, for a lot of people, they won't know what that word tithe mean. What does that mean to you?
Jim Sheppard [00:01:26]:
So we gave a tenth of our income, which is kind of a place where, you know, some people think it's an end, it's a destination along the way. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a marker. It says you've hit a certain point. And in the Old Testament of the Bible, it teaches that, and it's a tenth of your income. So on May of 2000. Excuse me, May of 1987, when we wrote the check, we were writing a check for one tenth of everything we were gonna make that month. And we did that as an act of worship, as a part of our discipleship and ongoing growth, and have never looked back. So I was in the business world.
Jim Sheppard [00:02:00]:
My degree is in accounting, minored in finance. I was a business executive. I was senior vice president, CFO of a big company. Company got Sold. They moved my job to New York City. And summer of 1992, I was trying to figure out, what am I going to do next? And all I was asking for was for God to show me an open door. I thought it was going to be in financial services because there were three doors that opened, but they all closed. And then the door opened for me to go to work for this company.
Jim Sheppard [00:02:24]:
They had actually helped my church, which was a church plant, raise the money for our first building project, and I ended up going to work with them. I think I was consultant number four, and I've been here ever since.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:35]:
How about that?
Jim Sheppard [00:02:35]:
Yeah. So it's just the accumulation of all of that over the years. I certainly wasn't a generosity expert when I started. It's really the cumulative things that I've picked up over the years.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:46]:
Yeah. So you're married, have a wife. What's the story there? Why? Family, kids? What's the background?
Jim Sheppard [00:02:51]:
Yeah, yeah. So wife, Nancy. We met on a blind date at the University of Georgia. As I like to say, she was blind, and I needed a date. It worked out for me. Kevin, I don't know about her. You'd have to just talk to her, but I know. So we've been married for 46 years now.
Jim Sheppard [00:03:06]:
We have two girls, both grown, both married, both Christ followers. Married to Christ followers, which is by God's grace to anybody who's watching out there. If you have kids and they've gone wayward, it's probably not your fault. Sin is real. Kids have choices. And so it's by God's grace. It's not cause I'm some great parent. If it's anything, it's cause she's a great parent, not me.
Jim Sheppard [00:03:29]:
And then they each have three apiece. So I have six grandkids age 4 to 10.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:34]:
People would never expect somebody that basically runs a consulting company for churches on issues of generosity and building campaigns to be on a marriage and family podcast.
Jim Sheppard [00:03:43]:
Probably not.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:44]:
But the moment you and I met, one of my first thoughts was, man, I want to have Jim on. Because I just think there's such a connection between generosity and thriving in marriage. Not that in any way a thriving marriage is something you can pay for. I'm not saying that at all, but I am saying that the principles that are behind it. I know. So for Jim, Jenny and I, we both grew up in the church. It was just never a debate for us from the moment that we got married. I talk about it this way all the time.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:15]:
There are some decisions you can actually make once, you never have to make again for the rest of your life.
Jim Sheppard [00:04:19]:
Very true.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:20]:
Jenny and I have never questioned, are we going to church? We knew that we were, and that was before. I mean, I was in graduate school, so I wasn't paid to do so at the time. There was never a question of whether or not we were going to tithe. I mean, that was definitely where we were going to start. And from day one, that was a concept. And I'm in no way saying that's the reason that I think our marriage is successful, but I think it's correlated and I think there is some causation that goes with it. We just came out of a series recently on the podcast where we talked about money, where I kind of laid out some of the principles. Jenny and I have followed that in 25 years, we've never had a fight about money.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:55]:
We've had disagreements on other things. But for whatever reason, this is one of those issues of where we're on the same page. What do you see whenever you look at the state of marriage in the church, outside the church? What do you think is the correlation, if not the causation, between generosity and truly loving each other well and thriving in marriage?
Jim Sheppard [00:05:19]:
Kevin, this is gonna be maybe an overgeneralization, but I know it's true to some extent. People who get the money and giving thing right tend to be healthy people. They tend to be healthier in pretty much all the areas of their lives because it just. It's not that you're perfect, it's not that you don't have flaws and things that are bothering you, but they tend to be healthier people. And as a result of that, I think it helps them to thrive in the marriage because you're both coming to it with a fairly healthy perspective. Maybe scars and wounds and some other things that are baggage, but that's one of the grounding points. And you know, in my church, you know, when marriages are in trouble, I'm an elder in my church and we get involved, we try to get involved. And I can tell you that I don't even know what the stats are.
Jim Sheppard [00:06:13]:
It's way too many. It may not be the primary thing, but it's one of the big things that they're at odds with each other. When it's a non biblical divorce, John.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:21]:
Gottman is gonna say that fights over money is the number one correlated concept. When it comes to divorce, I'm with them 100%. Every other stat I've seen puts money at least in the top three of issues with couples who are struggling.
Jim Sheppard [00:06:35]:
Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. And so when you get the generosity and giving thing right, it means the rest of the money thing is. Right. You've probably figured out that the biblical way of viewing money is give, save, spend, not spend, save, give, which is where people get in trouble. And, you know, even Dave Ramsey teaches that. I mean, you go to Dave Ramsey, one of his Financial Peace University courses. When you're putting a budget together, line one is giving, line two is saving.
Jim Sheppard [00:07:03]:
Line three is what you're going to take to support your lifestyle. And so when you got that right, it puts a governor on all the other things that can get out of control, and those become the sources of irritation and disagreement and heated arguments in the marriage.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:18]:
What would you tell the average couple that's out there? Right. I mean, maybe they give some or something like that, but they've never really thought about this idea of we want to be generous people. Yeah. First of all, what would be the argument for generosity? And then let's have a conversation about what would be the steps to begin to work to that.
Jim Sheppard [00:07:37]:
Well, I think that it starts with this whole idea, Kevin, that it's not yours in the first place. And that, you know, the Bible is replete with references to that, not the least of which would be Psalm 24, verse 1, the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. King David said in 1 Chronicles 29. I think it's 14. Everything we've given is yours, and from your hand we've actually given you. So the case for being generous is that we serve a generous God. And in his generous hand toward us, it should be a reflection of us back to Him. We'll never be able to reflect back to him how generous he's been.
Jim Sheppard [00:08:14]:
So as we're becoming more generous, we're becoming more like God. And that would be, I think, where I'd start with the case for it. The other thing is it just gives you a sense in this life of giving back. You can't just always be a taker, bro. You've gotta be. You gotta leave something for Nancy and me. What we found is the more we can do that, the contentment level just goes way up for us. The joy level goes way up.
Jim Sheppard [00:08:40]:
Our fulfillment in life goes way up. And let me tell you something. When your contentment meter is high, it actually stifles a whole bunch of other stuff in life that'll bother you. Cause covetousness is actually the fruit of not being content. So when you're not content, you're always gonna want something other than what God's allotted to you. And when you're generous, you show peace and content going to thrive. You're going to experience shalom, which is thriving in the biblical sense.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:07]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jim Sheppard [00:09:08]:
So that would be where I'd start.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:09]:
Yeah. It's interesting. We talk a lot around here of that idea that marriage is bigger than us, that when we struggle, we have an enemy that comes in and makes it all about basically all about me and my choices and my love, my desire. It expands maybe where I start thinking about me and Jenny. Okay. But whenever we truly get a biblical picture of how God designed marriage, my love for her then has a ripple effect to Ella and Silas, to my parents, to Jenny's mom and family, to this community. Now you ripple that all the way out. I've written marriage books.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:44]:
Right. If I don't love her, well, people will begin to question what I've written. And ultimately it's our act of worship to God. And so anything that can get our attention, that this is bigger than just us, I think becomes a powerful thing. And it's also interesting to me, it feels like God has, in an act of gracious love to us, put in some mechanisms and systems to say, hey, if you live this way, it'll be.
Jim Sheppard [00:10:11]:
Better, a lot better.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:12]:
Because it feels like to me that one of the issues of generosity is just from the get go, if I get used to living off of 90% of our income, it's not that hard to live off of 88% or 85%.
Jim Sheppard [00:10:26]:
It's not that hard.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:27]:
But when I live off 100% of our income, it's not that hard to live off 105%, 110%. And the difference between those two directions is a dramatic kind of concept. So how would you look at a young couple? Let's say I'm currently leading a bunch of young couples here at church on this issue of money. They haven't been taught about it. We don't train it in school, anything like that. Right. So I'm just kind of show them in ministry how this works. What would be your first instruction? Somebody who just got married.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:00]:
Even a young couple here in California, housing is so expensive. Probably the biggest difference between me being in Arkansas and me being here is in Arkansas, if there was a young couple who's going to get married, I'd ask them, what's your plan? And if they did not have a plan to buy an Apartment. To rent an apartment or buy a house. I'm like, you're not ready to get married?
Jim Sheppard [00:11:18]:
No, that's right.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:19]:
Out here, couples have no chance.
Jim Sheppard [00:11:20]:
No chance.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:21]:
They can't do it. They're going to have to figure out another. They're going to have to live with somebody or something like that. Take a couple like that. Money is extremely tight, but they buy into this idea of generosity. What would be the very first step they need to take?
Jim Sheppard [00:11:37]:
I think people get in trouble, Kevin, because they haven't really assessed how much they have and what's important and how to spend it. So I'd sit down and say, hey, let's get on a piece of paper. What is the income that you really have here? How much of that is gross? And then let's take the taxes off because we know that's going to be paid pretty quickly. So let's just look at how much you have to run the rest of your life in a month. And let's put that over here and then let's create another sheet over here and say, what's really important to you and the priorities you're trying to accomplish? Where does housing fit into that and how much are you willing to allocate for housing? And based on that, what does that say about the choices that you might have? What we tend to do is we go out and look and see what the choices are and we fall in love with something and then go back and assess. And it's a little more than we probably should in some cases, a lot more. And now we're trying to justify making that choice. Cause we've fallen in love with something.
Jim Sheppard [00:12:34]:
So before you fall in love with a choice, do the assessment of how much do I really have to work with, how much can I really allocate to that choice, and what are the things I could afford based on that? That's where I'd start.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:48]:
So let's go now with an older couple who might have more means, things like that, but also probably has more commitments. Right. Ramit Sethi talks about there's a lot of people in America who are truck poor. So basically it's housing and transportation that are probably two of the driving costs for most people. And once you've made those decisions, many times you feel stuck in those decisions. Somebody listening. Average couple out there, they got a couple kids. Money might be a little bit tight, but they have a bigger income than that younger couple.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:19]:
Is it the same process for them or is there a different process that they need to work through?
Jim Sheppard [00:13:24]:
I Think it's probably the same process, Kevin, but the sheet would. Over here with the choices, would have things that are already committed to. And then you have to decide, are there some things that we can stop doing to create more margin over here? One of the things I love about giving campaigns, when we do them in my church, is Nancy and I end up kind of taking an assessment of where we are with our money. And sometimes we end up saying, let's stop doing this so that we can start doing something else that's better. It might be giving. It might be something else that we're dealing with. But that's what happens when you're along the way. The new couple doesn't have anything that they're dealt with.
Jim Sheppard [00:14:08]:
It's a clean sheet of paper. But this process is. You still gotta go over here and say, how much money do I truly have? Let me tell you something, Kevin, as we sit here and you and I are thinking, thinking, oh, Jim, that's a basic. Everybody knows that. I'll bet you 8 out of 10 people don't know that. Don't know the real answer to that. They might give a directional answer, but they don't know the real answer. I'm talking about the real answer to that question right there.
Jim Sheppard [00:14:29]:
Then let's take that over here. How much of this is already allocated? How much of it is already spoken for every month? And are these the real choices and priorities that you want in your life? Or are there some things that need to go away so that you can create margin over here? So it'd be a similar exercise, but with different choices.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:45]:
There's no question that most people don't know what they actually make. Back in Arkansas, when I was a lead pastor, oversaw 20, 25 employees. And at every annual review, I would just simply ask the person, what do we pay you? And it was shocking to me how rarely people actually knew.
Jim Sheppard [00:15:00]:
They didn't know how much they got paid.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:01]:
No, they had no idea. They would give a number that maybe we paid them that three years ago, but we've done three raises since then or something like that. And I would always have a sheet in front of me that would have the information that not only showed their actual salary, but then showed everything that else that went into that and then had a bottom number. And I would just turn and give it to them. And it was a great reminder to them of what was going on. One of the things we're talking about, our couples here is you always have to be able to answer four questions as quickly as you possibly can. What is your actual income? What is your debt? What is your ratio of fixed cost? And what's your net worth? And if you understand those four. And again, Ramit Sethi, I kind of like, I'm a fan of his regarding this.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:40]:
If you can answer those four questions and be generally headed in the right direction, then I don't really care if you go to Starbucks or not or how you deal with something like that. So what would you say? Do you see a connection between generosity and emotional intimacy in a marriage? Are those two things correlated from your own experience? How long have you been married, by the way?
Jim Sheppard [00:16:05]:
You told me 46 years.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:06]:
46 years. So what would you see as the connection in those places with an emotional oneness and this issue of generosity?
Jim Sheppard [00:16:15]:
Anything you're arguing about is gonna get in the way of emotional intimacy. You know, whether that be the regular, ongoing, or whether you were talking about sexual intimacy. And they're both a part of it. Right. And anything that you're arguing about, you know, it's gonna get in the way of that. It's just like, uh, if only she. If only he and Dah, dah. All the things that we replay in our heads, you know, and especially.
Jim Sheppard [00:16:38]:
And it might not even be the big things, it's just the smaller things. And you've gotta resolve that. One of that we've tried to do over the years is we've tried to keep really short accounts, really short accounts, when we're not on the same page about something, Especially if it's a bigger argument. I'm probably the worst one. I'm the one who's like, nope, we ain't talking about that. Sorry. I'm the one who wants to go to Hampton Inn and spend a couple of nights just so I can cool off. And I don't do that.
Jim Sheppard [00:17:05]:
But I'm saying that's mine. And so that gets in the way of everything. And the money issue can be so unsettling that it creates that for you, even sometimes subliminally, you don't even know it's there. And it's there. Right. And it's just getting in the way. So, yeah, I would say it's a big deal long term. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:25]:
One thing we talk about often here is that money isn't always about money.
Jim Sheppard [00:17:29]:
Money is hardly ever about money.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:31]:
That it's about other things. What are the other things that we label? We think we're debating about money, but there's actually some underlying issues within our own lives. What are the things that you See, money is actually about.
Jim Sheppard [00:17:43]:
At times, I think it's about control. I think it's about ident. I think it's about preferences, whether they be selfish or not, choices, you know, what are we going to do with our money? But a lot of times that has to do with what I want to do with my portion of the money. Right. And so that's where I think you have to get on the same page with that. And when you're not on the same page, it's going to leak, Kevin. It's going to leak and it's going to show itself. It's going to pop itself up.
Jim Sheppard [00:18:11]:
You know, it's like a. Just like a jack in the box. It just pops up. And you're like, oh, there it is. And sometimes it comes at very inopportune times. You're not even talking about that, but there it pops up. See, I told you that was the way, you know, one of you says to the other one, and it's just like. Cause you're triggered on that.
Jim Sheppard [00:18:28]:
And so, yeah, I would say it's rarely about money. You know, it's sometimes based on how you grew up. I grew up in a fairly healthy family background as it relates to money. My dad was a banker. Both of my grandfathers were bankers, and my dad was a really good churchman. My dad was a giver, too. And so I saw my dad give. He was always putting his check in the offering plate.
Jim Sheppard [00:18:54]:
So I didn't really have that. But I know people whose family background, when it comes to money, has scarred them in a way that I'm looking at them, I was like, ooh, man, I'm glad I don't have that in my back, my backpack. And so that affects them when it comes to the money and the way their identity and the way it plays out and their background and all the other things. So it can become a lot more complex. And that's why I think it's really important keep short accounts. You know, if it's there, let's settle it. And then when we settle it, let's make sure we've really settled it. Which means.
Jim Sheppard [00:19:26]:
Hey, sweetheart. So I think we're good right now. I don't know about you, but the overnight factor can kick in. And tomorrow morning I'm pissed off about it. Tomorrow morning I'm ticked off about it.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:38]:
Well, no, that's totally fine.
Jim Sheppard [00:19:40]:
More than I was last night. And it comes back again. So what I like to say is, hey, sweetheart, let's do a check in tomorrow morning. And Just make sure we're still good. Make sure the gremlin didn't come out of the closet and haunt you. And we're now unsettled when we thought we were settled. Kevin, I've seen way too many lessons. I've tried to referee marriage situations in my church.
Jim Sheppard [00:20:03]:
I've seen that multiple times. We're settled. And then tomorrow morning, I get the call from the. I'm usually dealing with the husband. You saw it, you heard it yesterday afternoon. We were okay. And she wakes up this morning and she's yelling at me about it again. And I was like, well, then y' all need to have that conversation.
Jim Sheppard [00:20:19]:
It wasn't settled. We just thought it was, but it wasn't. Right. So I think that's really important when we say this issue is settled. Money rise. Let's make sure it is.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:28]:
Yeah. And a lot of personalities, they process things later. I'm that way. I can.
Jim Sheppard [00:20:34]:
My wife is. That's the way Nancy is. I'm an immediate processor and she's not. I want to close it now, and she needs some time, and I'm the one who has to back away, Kevin. I need to back away to give her space.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:45]:
No, absolutely. It's helpful in my job because whenever conflict arises, I tend not to feel the emotion of the conflict. So the angrier you get, the calmer I actually get in the moment. And then we'll process through it. But then in the days to come, I start feeling the emotion. So I'll be ticked off three days from now.
Jim Sheppard [00:21:03]:
And I've already settled down. Yeah, I've already processed it.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:06]:
So Jenny has to know that about me, of what that actually looks like. Whenever you're coaching young couples, couples in general that are successful, that kind of thing, how do you convince them to prioritize this aspect in life when there's so many other things? There's so many expenses that are out there, and we want to take the trip and have the kids have everything that they want to have. And we're just trying to get through in life. Right. But for many couples, there's a decent amount of affluence that is out there. How do you help encourage them to see that you can actually that God's blessing you in part, to be a blessing toward others. And you can make generational impact in the lives of others if you will have and experience this generosity?
Jim Sheppard [00:21:53]:
Yeah. I think one of the things I've observed over the years, Kevin, is that money makes us more of what we already are. So I hear people who Say, well, if I just had more money, I'd be a better giver. If you're not a giver now, you're not going to be a better giver. More money's not going to solve that. So the stingy person becomes more stingy with more money and the giving person becomes more of a giving person with more money. Right. And so what you want to help people understand is begin your journey early on when you don't have much, if you don't know how to give, when you make $20,000, you'll never know how to give and manage your money when you have $100,000.
Jim Sheppard [00:22:35]:
The sloppy money manager is not made a better money manager by having more. It just gets exacerbated. And so this idea of leaving impact has to start early on. It probably won't find its way when you have more money in your hand. It might, it might. If it does, it's probably going to be through a religious experience, a spiritual conversion of some kind that converts your thinking and gets you. That's what happened with Nancy and me. Nancy and I had never thought about giving money away until we became Christ followers.
Jim Sheppard [00:23:06]:
I mean, we were 100% me focused. And then when we became Christ followers, it shifted our perspective. And then we started thinking about this idea of what would it look like. So we began to set lifetime giving goals, not just lifetime earning goals. Now the giving goals are attached to making money because you can't give it away if you don't have it. But that's the idea of leaving an impact. And one of the things that I see, and maybe you're making reference to this, is we've got a lot of people in the Gen X and Millennial generation that are going to start to inherit a lot of money from their parents. And if they don't know how to manage it, well, it's not going to be the best thing that ever happened to them.
Jim Sheppard [00:23:45]:
It's going to be one of the worst things that ever happened to them.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:47]:
It's interesting that you say that. So I have a 19 year old daughter with down syndrome. So there's a unique aspect to her life. And then her little brother is 17 and yesterday he and I went to dinner and we're kind of in a phase now that they're getting into adulthood, that what our plans were when they were little are different now than what our plans are now. And the conversation I sat down with him yesterday was, look, the family has a trust. Here's how that's divided up. Here's how much is in that currently? Here's what your sister. If something were to happen to me and mom, here's what your sister's gonna get.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:22]:
Here's the oversight I have over you for the next 13 years until you're 30. And yet, whenever you reach that point, you're going to be in charge of managing this aspect. Now, between now and then, if something happened to us, you would have access, but you'd have to get permission from these people to spend that kind of money. But trying to invite him into. Now at 17, he's starting to ask questions like, how am I going to make money? What is my career going to be? And to invite him into this process, in part to try to establish within him that you have responsibility here. You're not guaranteed any of this, by the way.
Jim Sheppard [00:24:57]:
And.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:58]:
Oh, by the way, there may not be any. Anyway. I don't. I haven't seen what the market's always a possible. What the market's done today.
Jim Sheppard [00:25:04]:
Yeah, I was going to say, especially.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:05]:
In this environment, it was less today than it was last week. But try to invite him into that process to begin to figure out what's going on. What is the balance here? And is there a balance as we look at Boomer specifically? And then I'm Gen X and. Right. We're beginning to look at what's next as well. For those in those generations, what is the balance between. I'm going to leave a legacy for my kids. At the same time, I have an opportunity to impact organizations and nonprofits in very powerful ways.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:37]:
How would you lead people in those conversations?
Jim Sheppard [00:25:40]:
Yeah, those are really complex conversations, Kevin. And I feel like the church is probably in a better position to have those conversations than anyone else. I think we have to take into account what the Bible has to say. I think one of the places that I would go, not the only place, but one of the primary places I would go, would be in the parable of the talents, which is about what we do with what's been put under our control. And so the idea is, what are you doing with what God's put under your control? Are you leaving it in the hands of people who are gonna do with it something that would be what you would want to have with it? I mean, I know your kids are not like this, but think about this. The person who has a K, accumulated something, a nice business, and they've sold it and cashed out, and they've got a nice asset, and they've got children that are. They're Christ followers, and they've honored God with everything they've done in their life. They've got three kids, none of whom are wise or godly.
Jim Sheppard [00:26:32]:
Do you leave money to them? And the church needs to speak into that. Right? Because the single biggest giving decision, we can talk to people about their weekly or monthly or annual tithes and offerings or whatever they're giving to the church or giving to other nonprofits. The single biggest giving decision you make in your life is what's going to be left behind. That's the biggest. And it's a one time decision for the most part. And so what if we've been great stewards over everything under our hand while we were alive and then we haven't spoken into where it goes when we're gone? You've done that with your kids, right? I think we as Christ followers have a responsibility to do that, to take in the information, spiritually and otherwise, and the good counsel and the wise counsel, and then with our conscience and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to say, what should I do? How much of this goes to my family? How much of this goes to other causes where I want to leave an impact. That's the drill. And the church is in a better position to speak into that than anyone.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:32]:
Else out there is there. And not that there's ever a percentage that you could say this is what it is, but what are some example percentages that you've seen that you thought that's a wise choice, that's a good choice of it's not 100% to the kids and zero to nothing else. It's the. Not all to the organization and nothing to the kids. But what does that look like for some families that you would applaud?
Jim Sheppard [00:27:53]:
Yeah, I've seen situations where they have limited the amount that goes to the children. So in other words, they're not trying to make the children wealthy and they're giving the rest of it away. I don't know really what the percentages would be because sometimes I don't even know what the full value of the estate is. And I've seen this. I mean, I think there's nothing wrong with endowing the college education of your grandkids. I mean, set that money aside so your grandkids can have a good college education. You don't know whether your kids may or may not have done that for the kids. You can say, as your grandparent, I want you to have a good college education and set money aside for that and then put other money in other places.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:32]:
I was watching a video online the other day, in which the person. Very wealthy, I don't think spiritually focused, but very wealthy. And he mentioned that he was actually not leaving anything to his kids. He said, I'm not going to rob them of the opportunity to build their lives. Now, they had a great deal of wealth. I mean, he had given to them already. But I thought that was a very interesting perspective, not the one that I'm going to follow, but a very interesting perspective of we don't want to allow our giving to our kids to actually stunt their own growth.
Jim Sheppard [00:29:04]:
That's right.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:04]:
And there is a danger in that.
Jim Sheppard [00:29:05]:
There's a very significant danger. If you'll watch families that have left large sums of money to children who really were not diligent in the way that they were managing anything else in their life. It's the worst thing they've ever done for them. They become drug addicts, they become alcoholics. They have failed marriage after failed marriage. They just never really amount to anything. It's not the majority report, but there's enough of them out there that you should be very, very concerned about leaving too much money to children who didn't have to grow into the amount of money that they're now having to.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:41]:
Yeah. So I got a brief question philosophically. Then I got a personal question, because that's really the only reason I have people on my podcast, just to help them mentor me. So a brief philosophical question. Not every organization or church is actually worthy of our giftedness because they're not going to be responsible with it. What are some markers that you would hold to say, hey, be careful. If you see these things, that's a red flag to me. Whereas there is an aspect of I'm responsible to be generous, I'm not fully responsible for what that other person does with my own generosity.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:15]:
I have to be generous first. So I can't use this as an excuse to not give, but I do want to give wisely. So what are some examples in organizations that you've seen, both good and bad?
Jim Sheppard [00:30:25]:
So for me, Kevin, for Nancy and me, we've actually decided that for ourselves. And I'm not saying this is the way. I'm saying this is how we do it. You end up getting a lot of solicitations, you know, both phone and in person, and otherwise. We don't respond to phone solicitations. We've got a really simple response. Kevin, thank you so much for calling us on behalf of the cause that you represent. Sounds like you're really fired up about it.
Jim Sheppard [00:30:51]:
Our process Is really simple. We've pretty much already decided our giving portfolio for this year. We'd be glad to consider you for next year. The first criteria for us is we need to see full financial statements. And if you'll send those to us, we'll be glad to consider that. Let me tell you how filtering that is. To my knowledge, we've never received a financial statement from anyone who made a phone solicitation. Never.
Jim Sheppard [00:31:13]:
So that makes it really easy for us because that's a qualifying criteria. We have to. So then for the ones that we do get the financial information or we're considering a lot of whom are, they're 990s on file, you can actually go research that and see it for yourself. We have a filter that no more than 10% can go to overhead and fundraising costs. We want to see 90 cents or more of the dollar go to the ultimate cause. And that's a pretty significant filter for us. It's helped us to discern, okay, where are the. And by the way, that's not to say that the ones that don't do that are bad.
Jim Sheppard [00:31:48]:
They don't meet our criteria because we want to see 90% or more. And you'd be surprised how many of them. It's only 70% and even less. Sometimes the phone organizations, you know, right off the bat, they're taking a big rake off the thing. So that's part of why we don't do it. But just ask for the financials because maybe there is a good one out. But over these years, I think we've had this rule for like 20 years. Nobody's ever sent us their financials.
Jim Sheppard [00:32:11]:
So we look at it and it's 90% or more. Then we decide, okay, let's take a look at what the impact does. Is this what we want to do with our money? Because I think most people know what they want to do with their money. When you talk about sex trafficking, we live in the Atlanta area, one of the biggest sex trafficking hubs in all of the world. And so anything that has to do with sex trafficking is probably gonna get our attention. So that's something that we wanna do with our money. Is this an organization that's actually doing that? And does 90% or more of it go there? And then we begin our final vetting criteria as to whether we're gonna give there or not. But that's us.
Jim Sheppard [00:32:49]:
I think if you try those filters, churches are different. You know, I do think it's weird when people say to me, I ask them why they don't give more than a church. Well, I'm not sure they'd know what to do with it. And I'm not sure I'd. And I'm like, well, why would you attend to trust a church that you don't trust? I mean, so that's a fairly simple question to me. But the nonprofits, whether they be Kingdom or otherwise, those two filters financial statements and 90% or more, you'd be surprised how it just filters everything down pretty quickly for you.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:16]:
Yeah. All right, so I got a personal question for you.
Jim Sheppard [00:33:18]:
Yes, sir.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:19]:
Jenny and I grew up in the church. Obviously, I'm pastor now from the very get go. She owns an advertising company. Right. And so. So we do not have a lot of money. By no means are we saying that we do have more money than we ever expected to have at this stage in life. And so from get go, it was just almost a robotic kind of tithe.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:38]:
You know, you're doing it and then you give extra to the different causes building campaigns come up, Salvation Army's doing something, you know, things like that. But I'm to a state in life in which I'm beginning to ask the question of, okay, is that really all God wants from me? Is now at 47 for however long he gives me, just keep on chipping away 10, 12% every year and all right, good, check the box and move on. Or does the life of generosity look different than that with our listeners watching? Coach me through, how should I look at this issue and what's the process Jenny and I can use to begin to see, is there something, something more out there that God is calling us to do?
Jim Sheppard [00:34:25]:
Well, first of all, I would commend you for your faithfulness and what you are doing. The second piece of that is I would ask on a regular basis, Kevin, both of you praying and just seeking God and asking, lord, here's where we are. Where would you want us to go? What's the level of giving that you would want us to experience that would draw us closer to you? Because you know me, I believe that giving is meant to transform us and draw us closer to God. And it would bring glory and honor to your name if we were to do that. Not just make us feel better, but would bring glory and honor to your name. And my guess is you guys will see some movement. It may not be all of a sudden, maybe just a trickle over a time. And all of a sudden you wake up and you're like, whoa, we're giving a lot more than we ever thought we would because you just took step by step and got there, your faithfulness, and you're just consistently holding yourself open to the.
Jim Sheppard [00:35:15]:
And you get to places you might have never gotten. Yeah, I think that's important. And having the conversation. I think just having the conversation, rather than allowing it to just go on without, you know, saying, hey, honey, are we at a place where we need to rethink our giving for the next year or two? Let's pray about that and see where that might take us.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:34]:
What's been the major markers in your life? You and Nancy. So with you and Nancy, is there one that's more quick to give than the other?
Jim Sheppard [00:35:41]:
No, we're both givers. Yes, we're both givers. That's the problem that we have to face, is there's not a no button in our house. So that's where we had to put criteria in so that we don't have to be one of the markers for us. Kevin. So there's a couple of them. One of the markers for us was we had a friend of ours. When we began to talk about all the places we were giving, he said to us, he said to me, he said, sounds like y' all have a broken no.
Jim Sheppard [00:36:06]:
But in other words, you don't know how to say no. So we were giving a little apart from our church. Our church gets the far because we have a great church, and we can do most of what we want to do through our church. So I get most of our giving. But we had all these other causes that we were giving, you know, a little bit here and a little bit here, a little bit here. And so we were thin but wide. And he said to me, he said, why don't you just decide what's important and what's not and give the same amount of money to fewer organizations? That was transparent, transformative for us. That's where those two filters came from, by the way, because we were saying yes to everything that sounds good, let's give them however much money we were giving them.
Jim Sheppard [00:36:49]:
And now we have a shorter group. We pretty much plan it in advance at the beginning of the year. We leave a little room for things that come up during the year. But if you came to me and said, right now, if I were to make a gift in 2025, I'd say if it's significant, I would have to say, hey, Kevin, let's start the process. But it'll be 2026 before we can put you into our portfolio, because our portfolio is pretty much spoken for this year. Right. And so that's been helpful for us, I would say for me, 2008 and 2009 was transformative. We were about to give, make our gift our monthly gift in March of 2009.
Jim Sheppard [00:37:29]:
So the great financial adjustment was well underway. Lots of churches were seeing giving impacted. We're a church consulting organization, which affects my income. And I said something to Nancy about slowing down our giving for a while while everything settled down. And the short version of that is she looked at me and she said, oh, so you know how to give when times are good, but when times are lean, you don't know how to give. And I said, let's keep writing the check for the same amount. We're not going to slow down our giving. Now, that was significant for me because she was right, Kevin.
Jim Sheppard [00:38:02]:
I really did know how to give when times were good. I didn't know how to give when times were soft. And so the lesson that God taught me is, you're going to make the same gift, it's going to cost you more, which means it's a bigger gift, because a gift is evaluated by God based on what it costs us, not what it cost Him, Right. To put it in our hands. And so that was significant. So Fast forward to 2020. The pandemic hits. Well, as you can imagine, church consulting organizations get hit pretty hard and never talked about slowing down our giving.
Jim Sheppard [00:38:31]:
Why is that? The muscle was already built, right? So it was those two just changing our giving priorities to do more with fewer entities and having filters, definitive filters, and then learning that I can give in in lean times and good times.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:46]:
How about that? Let's close with this question. So somebody's driving down the road. They're listening right now. They want to be more generous. Their spouse doesn't. What does a person do in that situation?
Jim Sheppard [00:38:59]:
So the giving conversation is a conversation of agreement. And I would say as much as you want to. I get this a lot from women, from women who are Christ followers whose husband is the breadwinner and they want to tithe and their heart is toward it. And the husband is either indifferent toward the faith or not of the faith at all. And it makes it hard on him. And I was like, look, God doesn't want you to break up your marriage to give. The marriage covenant is more, much more important than how much you give to your church. So just bide with them, pray for them, pray with them, and let it emerge in time.
Jim Sheppard [00:39:37]:
God is seeing the intent of your heart that you want to give and the fact that your spouse is not in agreement with you yet. Don't take that to a heated argument and begin introducing marital strife over an issue that's not bigger than the marital covenant. Stay with it, persevere, be persistent in prayer, and just let God work it out.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:58]:
Yeah, I see a good number. Especially. Let's take that gender stereotype, because it's generally true.
Jim Sheppard [00:40:02]:
That's the one that I see.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:03]:
I see a good number of women who. They're in that scenario, but there is a certain amount of money that. That they can spend without much question.
Jim Sheppard [00:40:10]:
That's right.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:10]:
And they literally tithe off of that.
Jim Sheppard [00:40:12]:
That's right.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:13]:
And the Lord sees the heart.
Jim Sheppard [00:40:14]:
I've seen that a lot of times.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:15]:
Jim, I appreciate what you're doing.
Jim Sheppard [00:40:16]:
Kevin, thanks for the invite.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:18]:
Build the kingdom.
Jim Sheppard [00:40:18]:
It's a joy.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:19]:
Daenerys is doing a great job, and we just can't stress enough. Again, you cannot buy a good marriage. We're not saying that at all. But if you will enter into a life of generosity, it will go a long way to changing the odds. We'll see you next time.
Jim Sheppard [00:40:31]:
Yeah. Thank you.