Blaine Neufeld [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to Change the Odds podcast with Blaine and Adrienne. Adrienne, another back to back weeks with without Kevin.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:08]:
Wow.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:08]:
Geez. What is he up to?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:10]:
What is going on?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:10]:
Leave a comment below if you wonder what. No, I'm just joking.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:14]:
I don't think you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:15]:
I don't think you'll be able to do that. Thank you so much. Anyway, tonight, today, this morning, whatever time you're listening to this podcast, we connect with you guys and save that one. Last night we heard Kevin continue the wonderful conversation that he was on and this time it was about conflict. And so he kind of covers three different common fights that Sue Johnson talks about that every, you know, reoccurring fight in your marriage kind of operate under. So it's going to be interesting when you guys listen to see which one it is that you see in your marriage and recognize some of the things. And then once we come back, I think we should maybe go through what ours was and hopefully or is. Okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:00]:
We're currently fighting.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:01]:
No, we're not.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:02]:
We're fine. We're fine. Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:05]:
Okay. Back to you, Kevin.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:06]:
Go get him, buddy.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:07]:
So tied into communication now is this idea of conflict and how we handle conflict, how we deal with conflict. And so on page 70 to 71, Sue Johnson, who's kind of one of the leading, kind of secular experts on marriage, I just don't know her. I don't know if there's a faith element or not. She actually wrote one of her books, she then co wrote with a pastor to take it into the church. And so there might have been some spiritual underpinnings that were there, but she's a psychologist first and foremost. She is a psychologist that deals with attachment theory. But she basically says this, that every couple only has one of three fights, that you can narrow down every fight into one of these three. And here's why that's important.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:51]:
If you and I can begin to identify the conflict that is actually happening, if we can step out of it and see how we are actually playing off of each other and recognize it and name it, then we can step back into it and make sure that we are only doing the positive actions, not the negative actions that are going to provoke our spouse or where they might provoke us in some way. So here's what we're going to do. I'm going to briefly describe two of the fights and you can consider those. And then I'm going to get in a much more kind of illustrative way into one of those fights. Now here's an opportunity for you if you want, you can take this. Obviously, you can text your questions to marriage at 56316. If you can briefly summarize a recent fight with your spouse or what is an ongoing fight that you've always had with your spouse. If you can briefly summarize that to just two or three statements, then during the Q and A time, I'll tell you which one of you is right and which one's wrong.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:50]:
We'll just do that. Don't use names. Don't use names. But Blaine will read me the scenario, and I will tell you what is actually going on underneath that discussion. So in the book, we lay out what these three are. I'm gonna describe the first and the third. Then we're gonna look more in depth of the second one. So the first fight that Sue Johnson talks about in her book Hold Me Tight is called Find the bad Guy.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:14]:
So this is now a fight in which I'm trying to prove how you were wrong. I wasn't wrong. Here's what you did. Not here's what I did. And so we will have. The court reporter will read back the tape of. Well, you said this. Well, no, I didn't say that.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:33]:
You said this. And literally, you were arguing in the moment, and instead of trying to solve the issue, you're trying to prove the other person wrong. Why? To make yourself feel better. Well, let's say, hypothetically, you win that. What have you won? You've proven that maybe you were really bad in choosing who to marry because you married a loser, and you just proved it. And what happens in Find the Bad guy is literally, instead of this being the issue and Jenny being here and me being here and we're attacking the issue, the issue gets removed and we start attacking each other to such an extent that if we're playing Find the bad Guy and I start to lose, what do I do? I have to bring up past things that I think I'm right about and she's wrong about. And so John Gottman's gonna call that gunnysacking, where literally, I have a little gunny sack here with what I think are some great bullets, and the next time I need them, I got them right here. And if I start losing this argument, then I've gotta change the goalpost.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:43]:
I got the territory to an argument where I'm actually going to win. Have you ever been in a fight with your spouse? And before you get into it, you're suddenly realizing, I don't even know what we're fighting about anymore. But they're wrong, that's find the bad guy. And if you will, recognize that process. So if you really start litigating, here's what happened. Well, does that really matter exactly what was said, exactly what was underneath? The question is, okay, how do you feel right now? And is that the way, as your spouse, that I want to make you feel? No. And so if I did wrong in that, I want to apologize, I want to learn, I want to do right. If I was misunderstood, okay, I really don't have to justify myself in this moment, because even if I think I was misinterpreted, I still don't want you to have this feeling.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:36]:
And if you and I can literally start attacking the issue instead of each other, that can have a transformative process. One way you can go about this, it's a very practical kind of concept. If you get into a moment which you feel like you're battling against each other, literally sit on the same side of the table and put an object on the other side and say, okay, that's the problem. How can we together go after that? I view this. Maybe you've heard this illustration before, right? So my parents are divorced. I still remember distinctly as a kid growing up, before Siri, before iPhones, Google Maps, all of that. I still remember driving to, like, Florida, which is where we would vacation, going through Memphis on our way to Florida, My mom having the Rand McNally map, right? Then my dad's driving, and my dad's saying, hurry up. Tell me what the next turn is.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:29]:
And mom's like, well, I think the turn was back there. And he's like, no, you don't know how to read a map. And she's like, ah, I don't know how to read a map. And then they would pull over and he would find out he didn't know how to read a map either. And I've often said that this is one of the privileges that Jenny and I have, that we don't have to ever worry about that, because now we just follow whatever Siri says. If we go the wrong direction, it's Siri's fault. And we are united with Siri being to blame. That is a great image and illustration of if you can unite together and attack the problem.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:00]:
So that's the first one. The last one is what sue calls freeze and flee. So this literally is when all the conflict stops and one emotionally shuts down and the other one emotionally leaves because they can't feel and hurt any longer, and the relationship becomes extremely cold, living parallel lives. Now, notice this here's the danger in this relationship. This couple will say, oh, we never fight. And they may not recognize that that's a problem. You know, if it were up to me, your relationship would probably have more conflict than it actually does. And you're like, what kind of twisted mind do you have? Because the problem in a marriage is never the conflict.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:52]:
It's our inability to resolve the conflict. If you're in here tonight and you're thinking, we got so much conflict, that's what's wrong with our relationship. No, that's not the problem. Conflict is never the problem. As a matter of fact, conflict is a tremendous avenue and aspect for growth. I would even make the argument that you actually can't grow without conflict. Conflict is one of the best things that can ever happen to your life and to your relationship. It's the inability to resolve conflict that is the problem.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:20]:
It's the lack of that skill of how to emotionally regulate, how to be humble, how to have a conversation, how to make sure that we're on the same side. We're attacking the actual problem that's at hand, not to allow it to go a thousand other places. Not to get defensive, not to get attacking it. Is this skill now to repair, to resolve conflict, to still feel united and connected, even if we can't come up on the same opinions or have the same mindset to come up with some kind of resolution where we feel like we're together in this, if we could increase that. In your relationship, conflict actually becomes a gift. The very thing that many of you think is destroying your marriage is the very thing that God has actually given you to strengthen your marriage, if you will learn how to handle it. But the moment you begin to emotionally disengage and to just. We can't go there anymore because there's so much pain.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:09]:
This is actually what Sue Johnson would say is the greatest threat to your marriage, that of the three fights, when you start having this third type the most often, this is the pathway to divorce. But let's look at the second one, what she calls now the protest polka, which I don't even like that I'm not a dancer, so it makes no sense to me whatsoever. But let's look at this dynamic that I think plays out in many of our lives. So we're going to use the table here now kind of as an illustration. So we're going to have the wife on one side and the husband on the other. And what we see above the table is to imagine these as four quadrants. What we see above the table. This is what is visible.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:53]:
This is what we can see and hear really, really easily. The information that we take in is here. But then we have things that are going on below the table. Below the table are the emotions that I'm feeling, the stories that I'm telling myself. These are the things that are not visible to anybody else. Only I can see what's going on below the table in my life. Everybody can see what's going on above the table in my life. So let's imagine there's a scenario.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:23]:
There's some kind of trigger, something that triggers a conflict of some sort. And just for purposes of illustration, not as though it happened from my own house this weekend. Just for purposes of illustration, let's say Jenny walks in the kitchen and sees dishes, dirty dishes everywhere. So she sees that, right? She feels unseen, unheard, unvalued and unloved. Now, when she is. And she is. When she is mature, she will surface that feeling because the rest of us can't know that that's what she's experiencing at this moment. And so if she doesn't surface the emotion, we're not going to understand anything.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:17]:
But out of maturity, Jenny will surface feeling unseen, unheard, unvalued, unloved. And she might say, hey, honey, whenever I walk in and I see the kitchen like this and you like that, I feel unseen, unheard, unvalued, unloved. Now, that's how a mature person handles it. Let's say it's a bad day and she's not acting in as mature of a way. She walks in, sees the dishes. She feels unseen, unheard, unvalued, unloved. But instead of surfacing that emotion, what we tend to do is surface a protest. Hey, this isn't right.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:01]:
I have these emotions and alarm bells are going off in my body. Fight or flight is taking on. Well, Jenny is going to be fight most of the time. There's not a lot of flight in that girl. And so fight or flight's going off, and so we have to let everybody else know. But without a spiritual or relational maturity to surface the emotion, we serve as a protest. And it might sound like this, does nobody care about these dishes? Okay, well, now the husband. Now the husband feels attacked, shamed, guilted.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:39]:
Notice that. Even listen to the protest. Does nobody care about these dishes? So it's not a failure of action. The protest actually claims a failure of heart, of character. And so he feels now attacked and shamed and unworthy. Now, if he's mature and I love how I've switched this now to this random third party. We went from Jenny very specifically. Now we get to this side.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:10]:
If he hypothetically, as though I'm talking about Jenny's, like, third husband, Right? Which if I don't clean those dishes, if he has maturity, he surfaces. Hey, honey, I hear you. And here, hang on. Let me take care of this. As I'm doing so whenever I hear, does nobody care? I feel attacked, unworthy, and now surfacing those emotions. But most of us don't have that kind of maturity. And so now we're attacked. And so we surface a defense.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:54]:
Oh, well, I was going to get to them. You know, I worked all day and I did this. And do you know how hot it was on the golf course? And like all these things. So we surface a defense. Now, notice this. When I surface a defense, I am now defending myself, which causes Jenny to feel even more unseen, unheard, unvalued, unloved, because she is protesting to get attention toward her heart. But I have responded by paying less attention to her heart and defending my heart, which actually now deepens the feeling of feeling unseen, unheard, unvalued, unloved. So what do couples do when they have raised a protest and gotten a defense in response? What do we do now? We surface a greater protest because the first one didn't work.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:04]:
And what's going on inside of us is there's such turmoil that we desperately need somebody else to see this. We need to feel seen and understood. And this is so agitating and so threatening to who we are as human beings, where relationships are so important. We can feel so distant here. And don't forget, whenever it comes to human beings, to feel disattached is the greatest threat we can have to our lives. The only defense mechanism that humanity has are relationships. In the same way that, you know, the alligator, the shark, they have teeth, right? The bee has the stinger. You and I only have relationships.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:42]:
So whenever we feel unseen, unheard, unvalued, unloved, that's not just, oh, some mamby pamby. Oh, well, they just need to have the feels. No, no, no. That means we're in danger. And whenever we surface a protest about that and it responds in a defense, which actually drives the person further away from us, making us feel more unseen and heard and valued. What we surface this time is a greater protest. Well, you never seem to care about these dishes, which now makes our hypothetical husband feel even more unworthy, ashamed, not sufficient. And this time, he will either raise a Greater defense or shut down out of fear of him saying the wrong thing.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:41]:
But notice this. Whichever way he goes does not matter. Because an emotional shutdown or a greater defense, both of those actions are not an affectionate appeal to a spouse's heart, recognizing the very thing that she needs to begin with. Instead, it further reiterates the concept that I don't see you, love you, hear you, value you, or help you understand. And so what we have now, what Sue Johnson is going to call the dance, what some psychologists now call the infinity loop. And that is an emotion that is not surfaced. Instead, it is mask and a protest, which creates an emotion that is not surface, that is masked with a defense, which deepens the original emotion, which leads to a greater protest, which deepens the original emotion, which leads to a greater defense. And literally, this couple is now stuck in this loop, which if at any moment either one of them would recognize the process and go, oh, hang on, hang on.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:04]:
If I would, in this moment, while feeling a little jabbed, not think about myself first and go, wait, that's very. Jenny would never want to hurt me. Why would she say something like that with that tone, with that attitude, with that mindset, oh, my goodness, she must be hurting. And if I can literally ignore the first jab, and instead of defending myself or jabbing back, if I could instead reach into below the surface and invite her to surface that emotion, which she's afraid to surface, because how am I going to handle or treat it? But if I create a climate where. Where it's now safe for her, well, I'm not gonna get defensive. I'm gonna listen with curiosity, intrigue. How can I learn? How can I grow? What am I missing? What am I not understanding? And if she will now surface, that then her heart's out on the table. Now I gotta make sure her heart is right.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:07]:
But to make sure her heart is right, it's gonna have to be joined by my heart at the same time. If she would have the recognition of, look, I gotta serve. There's no way for Kevin to know this. I gotta surface what's underneath the table. Now notice how quickly. Don't get caught up in the genders here. Cause this can quickly flip. It's not always she's protesting, he's defensive.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:31]:
Let me show you how quickly this can switch. He feels unseen, unheard, unvalued, unloved. And it says surfacing that he protests. I thought we were gonna have sex. Now she feels unworthy, shamed, not enough. So she gets defensive. I thought we Just had sex. I thought it was good enough.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:56]:
Was it not good enough for you? And now that defensiveness doubles down his emotion. And so now he protests even bigger. Well, I don't know if we're ever going to have sex again. Which now makes her feel even more shamed and isolated to where either she shuts down or she gets even more defensive. And now the couple has switched spots but still engaged in the same infinity loop. And unless you and I recognize it, we will just live that out and notice what's happening here. Each one is unintentionally creating a deeper wound than the other. And actually, my protest is leading to her defensiveness.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:44]:
And my defensiveness is leading to her protest. So Silas does. He does school online through John Adams Academy. It's been great, right? And so we were out of town beginning of the week. He got to stay by himself. And he cut class, right? Okay, big deal. He cut class and great grades, all those kind of things. And so I came to him and I said, hey, buddy, you know, you had an opportunity here.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:11]:
Be responsible. You weren't. So there's consequences. You know, you weren't ready yet. I'm sorry. You weren't ready. There's consequences for that and all those kind of things. And he rightly, understandably, 16, got defensive, and he's like, I don't understand why you just don't leave me alone and let me do my thing.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:24]:
And I'm like, yeah, you want to be left alone. All right, so you're going to move out and pay for all? Like, no. I mean, I'm running out of my head. I didn't say that out loud. Y'all know how it goes. But here's what I told him. I said, you know what? I get it. You want to be treated like a man and be responsible for your own stuff.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:43]:
But notice this. Whenever you do not do what you're asked to do, you are inviting me to intrude into your life. That you skipping class on Tuesday is actually an invitation for me to say what's going on. And so the very freedom that you want, your own action is preventing that. And the last thing you want for dad to intrude into your life, your action is actually inviting that, and that's every single day of my own life, and Jenny is as well, is that we're engaged in a dance. And it is our actions that are actually driving away the very person we want to connect with. And it is our avoidance of surfacing emotions that's actually creating the very thing that we don't want. And so what would it look like if as we got into this infinity loop, if we begin to recognize it and went, hang on, timeout.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:47]:
Hey, we're in that thing that Kevin was talking about the other day. I can feel myself getting defensive. And they might say, I can feel myself protesting. Alright, let's pause. Let's step back. Man, I love you. I'm for you. I'm glad we're in this together.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:04]:
Now let's look at this actual situation. What's the emotion going on underneath here? Let me share first what I'm feeling. Here's what I'm feeling. No judgment, just here's what I'm feeling. Now what are you feeling? And whenever she says what she's feeling, you don't go, oh, no, no, no, you shouldn't feel that. No, no, no. She gets to feel what she wants to feel. And you don't have to defend.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:26]:
Might feel like an attack, but if it feels like an attack, just ignore the first punch. I mean, metaphorically literal, call 911. But if you can now step back and begin to recognize the pattern. Because here's the problem with the infinity loop. Are you ready for this? It's exhausting, but it's a game that we don't have to play. We can actually stop. And here's the proof that I can show you what's actually going on. We have to recognize whenever we are protesting and getting defensive, what's actually taking place is we have unmet attachment needs that are announcing they need to be met.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:08]:
And the way our needs announce that they need to be met is literally through our bodies. It's through fight or flight, it's through agitation, it's through a raised heart rate, it's through a tensing of what's going on, a facial kind of structure of we feel in danger. And if we will pay attention to our bodies and to recognize that and then begin to communicate that, literally surface those emotions and communicate that with our spouse. This is a cycle we no longer have to go on. Think about this. Why is it that there are days in which Jenny can walk into a kitchen overflowing with dishes and think to herself, dear Jesus, thank you for this life and this family and these jobs. And can put in her airpods and sing worship music as she's washing the dishes. And there are other days she walks in and sees the same thing and asks herself, where is the gun? If she feels seen, heard, valued and loved.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:12]:
Those dishes are a reminder of the messiness of this Life that God has given to us and the gratitude that we have for the privilege that we have to live this life. But if she feels unseen, unheard, unvalued, unloved, those dishes are just another reminder of those feelings. I don't know what you think you're fighting about. You're not fighting about that. You're fighting about whether or not both of you see each other, love each other, appreciate each other, are living this reciprocal kind of grace filled life in which you're in this together and you're loving each other well. And once we recognize that there are going to be times in which we don't feel that, but we can communicate, we don't feel that right now, then we can figure out how to repair, how to attach. And then whatever issue is on the surface, we can actually pretty easily deal with and handle what's wreaking havoc in our lives. It's what's going on underneath the table that none of us are willing to bring to the surface of the table.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:14]:
Oh, wow. Again, that is some good stuff. So good at what he does.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:19]:
He really is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:19]:
Yeah, I miss him.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:20]:
I know.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:21]:
Anyway, so to remind you guys of what's going on, there was three fights. Find the bad guy. The protest polka, which is doing a little dance, which we like, and freeze and flee. So as you kind of dissect those, babe, which one have you maybe seen in our relationship?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:40]:
Well, Blaine, personally, on my end, I think I am more of a freeze and flee.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:46]:
Oh.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:47]:
And I think I've grown in that area. I don't necessarily flee. I probably freeze. But I think I'm always willing to come back to the situation once I get my thoughts in order.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:57]:
So it's that emotional shutdown that you feel.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:00]:
Yeah. And I have to fight that because everything within me just wants to be like, I don't want to deal with this.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:05]:
You know, why don't you want to deal with it?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:08]:
I think it's like fear of vulnerability a little bit. Maybe you won't. Maybe you won't understand my side of it. So I'm afraid, why even put myself out there?
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:19]:
So we're kind of jumping back to the communication thing. You're creating a story in your head about what you think I'm gonna do, so you shut down. That's interesting.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:28]:
Yeah. And I think I just. I've never liked confrontation. So for me, it's just very uncomfortable. I'm a bit of an avoider.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:35]:
Just put it under the rug. Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:36]:
Let's just move on.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:38]:
Interesting. And maybe we'll have a conflict because I see ourselves as the protest polka. That process of where we do the dance a little bit and then I see myself as the pursuer. It's like, let's fix the problem now. Let's go. What are you doing? Come on. But you do the shutdown, which is kind of, I think the withdraw in the polka where one will withdraw. Because in our past fights, I think in our earlier years, first three years of marriage, we would have found a lot more stubbornness in the fight.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:11]:
My way or your way? And we were trying to figure out what is our way. Right. Because we had different upbringings and different things and different dreams and expectations, which we learned. You know, we kind of just had to make our own, which was fun now, but tough during. Right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:28]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:28]:
But then with the withdraw, I like how he says it kind of creates the panic. Because then I was panicking. I'm like, well, I need to fix the problem. If I can't fix the problem, I gotta go harder, obviously, to just go and fix the problem. Which then.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:41]:
Which pushed me away.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:43]:
Makes you withdraw even more.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:44]:
Yeah, yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:45]:
Because then you're getting overwhelmed.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:46]:
You're right. So I think the polka, Protest polka is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:49]:
Was maybe more our.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:50]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:51]:
And what's interesting about it is so then it resurfaces again and again. And then like there's this pseudo resolution when it's an unhealthy form. And then you start to get as he, you know, he's talking about this. But these let's almost fake solution for our problem, which I could have seen in our first couple years when we move, for context, we move away from all of our family. You're definitely more of a homebody. I had been away at hockey, so I enjoyed living away from our small town. And so you're in a whole new environment. And we would have a lot of fights because here I'm thriving at my job and you're trying to find your purpose.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:32]:
Right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:32]:
Yeah. And so feeling very like, alone, really.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:36]:
Right. And so then your way of finding a solution was, well, let's just do a long distance marriage.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:43]:
Yeah. Not my best moment, but I was like, hey, it's 2020, whatever it is, I'll just live in one province and you can live in the other one.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:51]:
And we dated long distance, so I was. Did you really believe that?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:55]:
I think a little bit. I mean, I didn't think it was a long term solution, but for that moment, for my happiness, it felt like. Like I was so desperate. It felt like reasonable, even Though I know now, like, I know it wasn't, but it just was, like, survival.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:10]:
Yeah. And it's interesting, looking back, how much friends we were because we loved each other, but there was a lot of friendship, so it almost made sense. Just do your thing. I'll do my thing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:30:23]:
Right. Because that's how we dated. So then. But marriage is, like. Well, more.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:28]:
Well, now we're lovers.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:30:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. And partners.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:30]:
And partners. And friends. Yeah. And we still are. So. So anyway, I see a lot of that in us where we. We kind of did that dance.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:41]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:41]:
Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:30:42]:
That's a really good point.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:43]:
And I see a lot of different couples through pastoring and different things. And it's. I like these steps because. Or like, kind of these awareness things because you can kind of catch yourself in the fight. Right. So when you withdraw now, because you still do it once in a while. Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:00]:
I know. I noticed it. I'm aware.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:02]:
Yeah. So what are your tactics? You said you don't want to do it, but what are your tactics to get yourself out of it? Or what?
Kevin Thompson [00:31:08]:
Well.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:09]:
Or what do we do?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:10]:
I just really hate that feeling when we're not on the same page and, like, you know, you're going about the house and you're, like, not talking because, you know, it's like, I don't know, you, like, you're just, like, not vibing, you know, you know, something's off, but none. Neither one wants to address the issue in that moment.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:27]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:27]:
And I just hate that discomfort because I love it so much when we're in sync. In sync.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:32]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:33]:
So I just think, well, you know, it's going to be worth it, even though it's going to be hard in that. Or uncomfortable.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:41]:
Yeah. So you just try to make yourself a bit more vulnerable each time, and you work at it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:46]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:46]:
But you get to know yourself. I think that's, as a listener, I would say, is a very key factor here, is you've gotten to know yourself. I've gotten to know myself. So then I know when I'm trying to pursue, pursue, pursue, and it's, oh, my gosh, this is gonna just create more withdrawal. So actually, I'm gonna slow down and give you space. Right. We talk about Donna a lot, but that was just a pivotal part where she's, you know, like, let her have time to process this.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:14]:
This just happened. Like, the other day, you were like, we've been talking about how we should pray more together. And you were like, pray right now in the car. Let's do it. Like, pray And I'm like, no, I don't want. He's like, why not? Why you want to do it? Like, you should do it right now. Do it right now. And I'm like, okay, well, now I'm not doing it at all because you were pushing me to do this thing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:31]:
I was already feeling kind of, like, vulnerable, Anxious. Yeah. And so then I just was like, no. Now it's like a kid, you know, when you're like, I'm the kid in this scenario. When. When you're like. You know, they just choose to be like, actually, now you've really made me mad, so I'm not gonna do it just to defy you. That's what happened to me in that moment.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:54]:
Right. So then how. So that we're driving home? We're doing that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:57]:
We were driving to somewhere, wherever.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:59]:
It doesn't matter.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:00]:
Okay, well, it kind of does, because we had to walk into whatever thing we were walking into. Him being like, hey, we didn't just fight.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:07]:
Oh, was that the breakfast?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:08]:
I don't remember.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:09]:
I think so.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:10]:
Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:11]:
Yeah. That was fun. But okay. So then the old self. Our old self would be okay, she's mad. I'm mad. No, I'm not gonna. She's.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:23]:
She's wrong. I'm right. We should just be praying. I don't know what's wrong with her. We kind of get divided from it now. Tell. What did we do the next morning? No. Or, like, how did we get back? Because it's like, I want solutions for my problems.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:38]:
So how did we. What are the strategies to get actually back on track when you have someone that withdraws?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:43]:
Well, we had to put that on pause because we were meeting people.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:46]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:46]:
I think it probably came up at breakfast. We probably just started talking about it. Right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:50]:
Which is, I think, some of a good thing for us. We like to verbalize out loud, not to, like, we like this. We like to process it. We're not afraid to talk about it if we think we're helping someone else, but really we're helping ourselves. So then you get more vulnerable on. I noticed you get more vulnerable on these things than you do in home. At home.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:10]:
Oh, what does that mean?
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:12]:
Means you're like an audience. I don't know what it means, actually. Kevin needs to come back.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:18]:
I know. We don't know enough. Oh, my gosh.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:22]:
And anyway, so we come back and we started to pray.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:25]:
Well, yeah. And then the next morning, we made an intentional point to get up and pray together.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:32]:
So cut through the awkwardness, give space, come back together. We both want the best thing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:39]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:39]:
Right. But we kind of have our own pride or whatever gets in the way. Where I want you to do it now, you don't want to do it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:46]:
Now, but I want to get there. But I'm not ready to do it in that moment.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:50]:
So we got to communicate. We got to identify the conflict and the typical fighting that we do. We got to know ourselves. And then I think we find real resolution, not pseudo resolution.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:00]:
So, yeah, do. Do you think. Do you want to go over, like, find the bad guy or blame the bad guy?
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:06]:
Well, I think.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:06]:
What does that look like?
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:07]:
Well, I think find the bad guy. To me, if I'm just kind of verbalizing, as I view other people and. And I get to know them, I get to. I want to fight for their marriage with them, you start to see these tendencies. The blame game is just a really dark, winding road. Right. Because newsflash, you're both guilty. Both people in the relationship.
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:32]:
Tip.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:32]:
This is a newsflash.
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:33]:
And this is. This is kind of the reoccurring problem. If we're talking about something very severe where he or she did something, okay, there's a very line in the sand, but we're talking about the everyday fights that get at you. Get at you. You never do this. Well, you never do that. Oh, you did this. Well, you did that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:51]:
And it's this game of, yeah, what good is it to you? Be the one that's right. If you're just putting the other one down. Right. So one of the couples that was kind of walking through something, he had kind of done something, has a habit in his life where he's been unable to kick it. He ends up kicking it. He's doing great for six months. This is back in Canada. And so she, ironically, in those six months, she resented him for this habit.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:17]:
And then she developed a habit when he was clean and going and rocking and rolling. She developed this habit where he was. Now, well, why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? And I'm trying to say you guys are both doing the exact same thing at different times. Have grace for each other, understand what is the root of this hurt, and then work together towards the common goal. Right? So it's like self awareness, you know.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:44]:
And sometimes to be self aware, you need intervention. Like maybe like therapy or counseling. Like, you can't always do it on your own on your own because you're so deep in whatever is happening. Prayer is big. Prayer is big. Pray for your spouse.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:57]:
And it's interesting how prayer just changes the mood, the heart, and, like, if you're in a fight or. We're disagreeing about prayer. How ironic is that?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:06]:
Isn't there, like, a. They say, like, you should always fight naked because it's, like, a lot harder to stay mad.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:11]:
That's what I say.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:12]:
Oh, that's.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:13]:
But I don't know if that's in any books.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:15]:
Well, maybe it should be.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:16]:
I should write a book about that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:18]:
Maybe.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:18]:
No, I shouldn't. We have lots to learn before we start writing books.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:22]:
That's true. True. We're just figuring it out as we go, huh?
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:25]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:25]:
Where's Kevin?
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:28]:
No kidding. Oh, man. Talk about finding the bad guy.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:32]:
It's him.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:35]:
I think that's it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:36]:
Okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:36]:
That's all I got.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:37]:
Cool.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:38]:
Yeah. So you want to sign us off?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:40]:
I'm trying to think of. What's the tagline?
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:43]:
See you next time.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:44]:
All right, bye.