What Nobody Talks About (But Everyone’s Asking) with Dr. Barbara Wilson

Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hey, welcome back to Change the Odds, the podcast where marriage and family were never meant to be a game of chance. Blaine, Adrienne, Dr. Barbara Wilson is back. We got a little mini series going on here. I'm loving this. In the midst of. We're on a lengthy series, becoming friends, partners, and lovers. And we've come to the end of that.

Kevin Thompson [00:00:17]:
And now we're talking about intimacy. What it means to be lovers built on vulnerability. Two episodes ago, we talked about intimacy outside the bedroom. Last episode, we heard Dr. Wilson's talk on. On how to have meaningful sex. But we normally don't show this part of. Whenever we do classes here at Bayside, we almost always end those classes with 15, 20, 30 minutes of Q and A.

Kevin Thompson [00:00:40]:
Always a fun time kind of in the room. But we normally don't air that on the podcast. But last night's Q and A, I thought was so important. We got so many questions that were filtered in. I thought it would be very useful for people think about some of the questions we got last night. We did talk about, to some extent, does a person have a right to say no to their spouse? So even kind of got into this idea of honoring agency, things like that. We had questions from every generation of how do you have meaningful sex whenever your kids are little? And the chaos that's there. What does it look like as you get older? Specifically, if function becomes a struggle for men and desire for women? We were just kind of all over the board.

Kevin Thompson [00:01:22]:
Do you remember your favorite question last night? Or the question that you thought, man, you loved your answer. Or. There's a lot of people that need to hear this.

Barbara Wilson [00:01:31]:
The one that I thought about was you were pushing me on other ways. Especially we talked about orgasms, and you kind of pushed me on. Okay, what else are you talking about, Bart? Oh, yeah.

Kevin Thompson [00:01:44]:
The stat I've read before, you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that 60% of women cannot orgasm by penetration alone. That it does take some other means.

Barbara Wilson [00:01:54]:
Absolutely.

Kevin Thompson [00:01:55]:
And you mentioned other means, and I was like, all right, Barb, let's be honest with people. What does that mean?

Barbara Wilson [00:02:00]:
In front of how many? Hundred.

Kevin Thompson [00:02:02]:
In front of a few hundred people. Just our closest friends.

Barbara Wilson [00:02:05]:
Closest friends in a spotlight with cameras on. I think it's great to be able to talk about some of those things, because people don't talk about those things. They're even afraid to talk about it with their spouse. But often I have women that are struggling with being able to have an orgasm, and they don't know what to do, and their Husbands don't know what to do, and they're struggling, and they.

Barbara Wilson [00:02:23]:
Feel like they're deficient.

Barbara Wilson [00:02:24]:
The husbands feel like they can't, you know, adequately pleasure their wives. And so providing some alternatives that are completely honoring and, you know, and helpful.

Kevin Thompson [00:02:35]:
Yeah. What's the difference between. All right, we're going to. We're gonna. We're gonna get an aid or assistance with this, and it's good. It's healthy, It's. It's natural. And versus unknowingly he seen something or she's seen something through pornography.

Kevin Thompson [00:02:52]:
We're gonna introduce that into. Cause those are radically different perspectives. One in which we're gonna approve of and say, yes, this is necessary. The other one in which we're like, that is a dangerous road to go down.

Barbara Wilson [00:03:03]:
Yeah.

Kevin Thompson [00:03:04]:
How do we draw the line?

Barbara Wilson [00:03:05]:
That's the line for me, where I'm concerned when things are wanting to be introduced because of pornography. I think that the difference is you find for the spouse that is being maybe pressured to have that happening in their sexual intimacy, there's usually some sort of discomfort. It feels a little bit degrading. And so, you know, kind of just being sensitive to what you're feeling about that and being able to, you know, talk about that. I get a lot of questions about that. But I believe bringing things in that are introduced during pornography or in your mind, that doesn't belong in intimacy. It doesn't belong in the bedroom. It's one of those things that God talks about keeping the marriage bed pure and honoring each other.

Kevin Thompson [00:03:54]:
One of the questions that we didn't have time to get to last night is, what advice would you give a spouse who has discovered that their spouse intentionally picks fights because it turns him on?

Blaine Neufeld [00:04:07]:
Oh, didn't see that one.

Kevin Thompson [00:04:08]:
Oh, wow. I like Adrian's response to that.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:11]:
Okay, let's dive in.

Kevin Thompson [00:04:15]:
So it's almost like an addiction to makeup sex.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:18]:
Right, and so is it, like, spicier then?

Kevin Thompson [00:04:21]:
I. I think so. I don't know.

Blaine Neufeld [00:04:22]:
I don't know, babe.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:23]:
We never.

Blaine Neufeld [00:04:24]:
I didn't put.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:27]:
We never fight, so.

Blaine Neufeld [00:04:28]:
No, but if we fight, then it's like just total separation.

Barbara Wilson [00:04:32]:
Right?

Barbara Wilson [00:04:32]:
That's usually what happens.

Blaine Neufeld [00:04:33]:
Yeah.

Barbara Wilson [00:04:34]:
But I wonder if it kind of builds up some sort of excitement that then sex becomes a release for that. But it. It. There's some problems with that. A little bit of dysfunction there going on.

Kevin Thompson [00:04:49]:
I get the idea of. We have felt disconnected. Whenever you reconnect, it feels great. It's a great reconnection. I've never. I mean, we haven't make up. Sex is not a thing for us.

Blaine Neufeld [00:05:00]:
Right.

Kevin Thompson [00:05:01]:
It's just kind of a. That's the. But I hear couples talking about it all the time. And so it is interesting here that there's almost one of them. I assume the man here can't. Can't have that same experience. Apart from what's going on hormonally in that moment. Is there.

Kevin Thompson [00:05:16]:
Is it raising.

Barbara Wilson [00:05:17]:
I think it's more the. Chemically. The dopamine. So a fight increases that chemical release, which. So let's say someone with adhd, they actually love to stir up or start fights because it stimulates the chemical in the brain, makes them feel good, and it allows them to focus more.

Kevin Thompson [00:05:39]:
So she just explained some of our co workers.

Barbara Wilson [00:05:44]:
Exactly. So it's. It's more of that dopamine release, which. And dopamine is that reward trigger that makes you feel good. So there's something about that that is creating some sort of chemical excitement for him. But it's, you know, it's not healthy. You're right.

Barbara Wilson [00:06:01]:
It's toxic.

Barbara Wilson [00:06:02]:
And it's definitely putting the spouse at a great disadvantage.

Kevin Thompson [00:06:06]:
Yeah. You know, one question we didn't get to last night, Blaine. I totally forgot about it until just literally right now. But it was such a great question. It's related to this in that the wife texted in that the husband basically can't have meaningful sex unless drunk.

Barbara Wilson [00:06:25]:
I found that really interesting.

Kevin Thompson [00:06:27]:
And so it's such an intriguing thing. And to me, as I read that, I think, all right, there's a guy who struggles with vulnerability and some counseling could be very helpful because literally, he can't figure a way to let his own guard down. So he has to create something that's gonna help his inhibitions kind of begin to go away. And how sad that is. I hurt for him. I hurt for her in both ways. But just the basic concept of what would it be like if you learned to truly be vulnerable with your wife outside of alcohol.

Barbara Wilson [00:07:01]:
Yeah.

Barbara Wilson [00:07:01]:
You sent me that question. And I thought first of all, you know, it was something he finally confided in her, which I thought, okay, that shows he's beginning to recognize that there's something that's wrong and was able to be vulnerable. So I was, okay, kudos to being able to be vulnerable. My second thought is that seems like an oxymoron because if you're drunk. Performance for.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:21]:
That's what I was thinking.

Barbara Wilson [00:07:22]:
I was like, isn't it becomes more impaired. Yeah, because I don't drink.

Blaine Neufeld [00:07:26]:
So I didn't Know that, um, because. And I've heard this question from multiple people that, you know, I've gotten to know and different things. So it's. I see some different layers in it. Number one, lasting longer is actually something that he's or is thinking about, so that why he would want to start drinking. So it enables him to last longer, and it's embarrassing to. To go so quick and those types of things.

Barbara Wilson [00:07:50]:
Okay.

Blaine Neufeld [00:07:51]:
The other question on some of it is this idea of it's been so associated with. And I would think pornography would be kind similar. It's like it's so associated with this event that now it's in a whole new event. My eyes are open to something different. This isn't what I know. I'm scared. I don't know what's going on. You know what I'm saying?

Barbara Wilson [00:08:12]:
Yeah. I think the alcohol can. Well, from what I've heard, can increase that arousal piece in the brain. But I think, especially for a guy, it can impair performance because it's an inhibitor and a depressant so things move slower. Which, you know, to your point, but my brain goes more to, why does he need to be drunk? So there's a guard up there. Maybe there's something from his past, some abuse from his past or something that being intimate triggers memories of that alcohol, kind of helps him block that out, numb that out. So, yeah, when I read that, I thought, you know, that's great. He's able to start recognizing that.

Barbara Wilson [00:08:55]:
But I would say he needs to dig in and see now let's do something about it. Yeah. What's at the root of that, but.

Blaine Neufeld [00:09:01]:
The fact that they're communicating. Right. And they're talking one on one. What's in terms of the wife's perspective or the women's perspective? How can that be well received and encouraged for him to be vulnerable, to say the things that are right? Because there's an element of like, I don't want to tell you the truth, that's embarrassing. This is intimate. This is our marriage. I'm. I'm a loser here.

Blaine Neufeld [00:09:24]:
I'm thinking that I'm not doing the things that you want me to do, and I'm embarrassing. Embarrassed that I can't do it because I hope, you know, I was better when I was drunk and I don't want to do that anymore. But what can the female side encourage?

Barbara Wilson [00:09:36]:
Yeah, her question was, how can I turn this around? And I think all she can do is, you know, kind of do what? She can't change someone. She can Only just start by, you know, she wants to be able to do it sober or not be involved in the alcohol. And I think that's. That's good for her to continue to try to do that. But just being supportive and understanding and okay, thank you for sharing. Now, you know, is that something that is. Because it sounds like when you're vulnerable that way he's concerned about it, he realizes it, that there's a problem with that. And then encouraging, hey, like, you know, can we go together? Let's.

Barbara Wilson [00:10:11]:
Let's figure this out. Why do you think that you need that? Just, you know, some of the questions that open up communication rather than, oh, you know, that's. That's terrible, we can't do that. You know, that shuts people down rather than going, you know, that soft launch and let's try to figure this out together.

Kevin Thompson [00:10:29]:
Blaine, what were some other questions maybe we didn't get to last night?

Blaine Neufeld [00:10:32]:
I thought there was a couple questions in there, and I had it as well, is like the spiritual side of intimacy, I think is very interesting that gets overlooked a lot of the time. We've had moments where Adrienne was really into some books and really discovering her God given identity. And I just said, my gosh, I don't know that you've ever been more attractive because the Holy Spirit is filled in you. And there's this spiritual element here where when you're synced up, I don't know if you guys want to talk to some of that.

Kevin Thompson [00:11:02]:
Yeah, I do think. I mean, we talked about two episodes ago, intimacy outside the bedroom. And I mean, anytime I talk about the faith element, I put it in this lover category actually within marriage because of that. Because there is this. There is a level of connection that whenever you reach a spiritual level of connection, that to me is deeper than many other things. And so I think that, yeah, that affection, that attraction that is there. You know, you've probably read the stat before about couples that pray together. You know, divorce rate is far less.

Kevin Thompson [00:11:31]:
I think it's interesting from an intimacy standpoint biblically of. So in Hebrew culture, Old Testament, they were not explicit with their conversations about sex, about organs, about anything like that. So there was actually a lot of slang talk. The thing that I would not allow in my house when Silas and Ella were little, like, we called everything about what it actually was in the Old Testament. They don't do that. It's all slang talk.

Barbara Wilson [00:11:54]:
Song of Solomon.

Kevin Thompson [00:11:55]:
Yeah, all the code words. But so what is the, the primary word used in the Old Testament to Talk about intimacy the way God created it between a husband and a wife. It's the word to know. And so whenever it is this idea of he knew his wife, Adam knew Eve, it is. That's a sexual intimacy and knowledge that's going on, but it really symbolizes now it's a full knowledge of who this person is. And so it just begins to show that. I mean, I am revealing to Jenny an aspect that nobody else gets to see. She's revealing an aspect to me that nobody else gets to see.

Kevin Thompson [00:12:32]:
So that we know each other in a way that nobody else really knows who we actually are. And then that just brings in the fallenness of who we are, the sinfulness, our need for grace, and yet the redemption, what God is doing in our lives and our story. And then the bigger picture. One thing that we talk about. You've heard me talk about our family values before, that we just go back to this idea that both marriage and family are bigger than us. This isn't just about me loving Jenny. This is about. As I love Jenny.

Kevin Thompson [00:13:02]:
Well, it has a ripple effect into listeners, into readers, into our kids, into our communities. That God, ultimately, I am loving the way I love Jenny is a testimony of how God is loving me and how I want to worship him. And so to me, the spiritual side of marriage is so vital.

Barbara Wilson [00:13:22]:
Yeah, Because I talk a lot about that, that, you know, the sexual intimacy is very much a spiritual connection. It's very divine and holy. Because you mentioned that word to know, which comes from the original Hebrew, the word yada. But it's also used in Daniel, talking about when. How God knows us. So it's like this amazing, you know, parallel to the same kind of intimate connection of, you know, God knowing us, God in us and in each other. So no wonder it comes under so much attack, Right? Because that spiritual connection is. I mean, it transcends human connection.

Kevin Thompson [00:14:07]:
People ask all the time, why is marriage so hard? Why is family so hard? Well, let's go back to our original story. When sin entered the world, it entered in a marriage. And the very first response was to cover ourselves. Shame now enters in. We're now covering the very organs that we're gonna use sexually. And now we're blaming each other. And so why should it be in any surprise now that it's most difficult at times to love our spouses, to love our families? Because those are the most intimate relationships that we have. And as sinners, we're afraid.

Kevin Thompson [00:14:43]:
We're scared of being exposed, of being revealed of who we are. And so we always wanna point the spotlight to somebody else. So the difficulties that we in marriage and family should actually just confirm what is our biblical story. And these are kind of how our first parents responded. What else, Adrian, do you have? Here's what I do. You weren't able to be with us yesterday, but here's what I do whenever I'm doing marriage conferences around the country is if we're passing a microphone, everybody has to start their question by saying this. I have a friend who. So what are your friends asking about? That would be the Q and A.

Kevin Thompson [00:15:16]:
I have two. Okay.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:18]:
One, I've heard that men's libido drops. It starts going. So it's like always high and then it starts going down. And women's starts going up. And at some point they meet, like in your 40s or 30s or. I don't know, is that true or is that just something I've made up?

Barbara Wilson [00:15:36]:
Well, I don't know. I don't know if I've heard that too. And I. I don't think that's. I think every situation is going to be different. But men's libido going down in their 40s. No, I haven't seen that.

Kevin Thompson [00:15:52]:
Patreon's so disappointed.

Barbara Wilson [00:15:55]:
Well, you know, wishful thinking. Yeah. Because my friend said, man, does it ever, you know.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:00]:
Yeah, well, that's a fair question too. Does it ever go down? Not really.

Barbara Wilson [00:16:04]:
So we have an expectation. So I talked about, you know, erectile dysfunction. And so sometimes you need, you know, as they get especially into more into their 50s and late 50s, there's more of that kind of concern with women, I think it's more situational. When you're young and you've got all the kids, you just don't have time as much to think about it. And often then when women go through menopauseven, though, the libido can go down, their enjoyment of sex can go up.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:38]:
Because they're just more carefree.

Kevin Thompson [00:16:39]:
Yes.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:40]:
They don't have the little kids. Yeah, that makes sense.

Barbara Wilson [00:16:43]:
Yeah, that makes sense. You don't have to worry about getting pregnant if you don't want to.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:46]:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. True.

Barbara Wilson [00:16:48]:
So there's.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:49]:
Yeah, okay.

Barbara Wilson [00:16:50]:
There's some of that going on.

Kevin Thompson [00:16:51]:
Yeah.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:52]:
And then I have a friend who's. Can we talk about toys?

Barbara Wilson [00:16:57]:
Yeah.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:58]:
Is that off limits?

Kevin Thompson [00:16:59]:
No.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:59]:
Okay. Encouraged. If it's like something you do together and it's not something that you're off doing on your own or whatever, I mean, maybe that's a topic too. I don't know.

Barbara Wilson [00:17:09]:
We talked about that last night. Okay. So specifically, we're talking about things that enhance orgasm for women. Yes, I totally encourage that if that's. But together, obviously, together, when you're doing it on your own, that's having sex with yourself, and that's taking away from the sexual intimacy in a marriage. But together, absolutely. Whatever is going to enhance the pleasure, but also the connection, as long as it's okay with both people and it's honoring. When you talk about other toys, the things that I hear in my office that come from more pornography, it's like, no, no, thank you.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:54]:
Yeah.

Kevin Thompson [00:17:55]:
Is it more disrespectful, more demeaning? Is that.

Barbara Wilson [00:17:57]:
Yes.

Barbara Wilson [00:17:58]:
I mean, just some of the things. I don't. Don't even think I want to talk about it here, because it's. They want to plant images in people's mind, but just things that you see on pornography that you can buy that are very discreet, very degrading and humiliating and. And women just are so repulsed by that and feel so degraded by that.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:19]:
Yeah.

Kevin Thompson [00:18:20]:
And I think, to go back to previous episodes where we had Dr. Jay Stringer on and he talked about so much of pornography, it's not about lust, it's about power. And so sometimes that could be a sign of what's going on in the relationship. Is this really about mutual pleasure or is this about one wanting to experience power? That would be a warning flag.

Barbara Wilson [00:18:42]:
Exactly.

Blaine Neufeld [00:18:44]:
Can I ask one more question? In terms of the usage of it, One of the fears that guy friends would have is, like, well, then I'm not needed. I'm not able to, like, if that's the thing helping her, then what about me? So how would you coach that or encourage that if. If she's struggling to have it? But yet there's some. You know what I'm saying?

Barbara Wilson [00:19:05]:
Yeah, I hear what you're saying.

Barbara Wilson [00:19:06]:
However, if you're doing it together, then it's. It's a mutual, you know, experience. So the husband can be, you know, using that. That, you know, device to help their wife and you're, you know, connecting together that way. Both, you know.

Blaine Neufeld [00:19:23]:
Yeah. Okay.

Barbara Wilson [00:19:24]:
Creating that, you know, mutual stimulation for each other. And again, that can change as you get older because there were some things I talked about that can hinder that. But if you're on med. Certain medications, it can be harder to have an orgasm, especially for women, because it's a little bit more complicated. And so sometimes those kind of things can really be helpful so that you don't just give up on sex altogether.

Kevin Thompson [00:19:50]:
And Say, what do couples do where the day in which we live, so many people, rightly so necessary, needed drugs for depression that can then, as a side effect can hurt libido, performance, or things like that. How does a couple balance that? And what's your encouragement in those scenarios?

Barbara Wilson [00:20:12]:
Well, and the thing with. Even with antidepressants that say it decreases libido but not necessarily performance, like, it might take a little bit longer, or you might, like, have to use some device, especially for a woman if she's on an antidepressant, it is. You have to, you know, work a little harder to have an orgasm. But it's still possible if they're on really high doses, you know, that can make it more difficult. But again, that's where some of those alternative options can be really helpful.

Kevin Thompson [00:20:41]:
Yeah. How do couples. This was Texas it in several different forms yesterday. This idea of attraction as we age. And it was brought up. And I mean, the way I'm reading the question is primarily the wife talking about the husband not exercising, not working out, just kind of letting himself go. Ella texted me yesterday a little meme that said it's been scientifically proven that happily married men are 15% overweight. And she texted that to me.

Kevin Thompson [00:21:15]:
So my daughter, down syndrome, texted that to me and then said, I'm sure this isn't you.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:19]:
And I'm like, she's so funny.

Kevin Thompson [00:21:21]:
Did Mom. Was mom part of this conversation? So how does a couple navigate.

Barbara Wilson [00:21:29]:
She's concerned about you.

Kevin Thompson [00:21:29]:
That's exactly right. She's watching out for me. How does a couple navigate the aging process? A possible loss of attraction. Is that natural? Is that a warning sign? I mean, I don't know. I mean, here we are, we're married 25 years now. I'm as much, if not more attracted to Jenny today than I was then. But for other people, that's a struggle. What does that look like?

Barbara Wilson [00:21:52]:
And I mentioned that one of the things that can inhibit that is when you don't take care of yourself, taking care of your looks, taking care of your health, taking care of your body. And people stop doing that sometimes. And that can be dangerous because their spouse can say, well, I'm not as attracted to them. I have to be careful with that.

Barbara Wilson [00:22:14]:
Because then there's the body, you know.

Barbara Wilson [00:22:16]:
That body image problems where women that are already, you know, very small have concern about that. So I'm careful on how I approach that. But, you know, if you're not. If you don't care about taking care of yourself anymore or how you look that, to me, is what's going on. You know, you've lost some sort of passion, you've lost interest in each other. And it's, you know.

Barbara Wilson [00:22:39]:
Yeah, it's.

Barbara Wilson [00:22:40]:
You're honoring your spouse by taking care of yourself. Not only your physical appearance, but your health.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:44]:
I think, too, for women, it's like, we wanna know that our husbands can take care of us and our family and protect us. And it's like, are you capable? Are you strong? Can you do that? Like, if you're not working out or taking care of yourself, we wanna feel secure in that too. And attraction, of course, but I think it's also this, like, mental. If you're not taking care of yourself, how can you take care of us?

Barbara Wilson [00:23:10]:
Right.

Kevin Thompson [00:23:11]:
You know, they have found a direct correlation, Adrian, to the amount of rounds a guy plays of golf and his longevity.

Blaine Neufeld [00:23:16]:
Thank you.

Kevin Thompson [00:23:16]:
It's 100% accurate. That is scientifically proven.

Barbara Wilson [00:23:20]:
I doubt that. I have.

Blaine Neufeld [00:23:21]:
No, no, no.

Kevin Thompson [00:23:23]:
Who's the expert? What about. Let's take that same topic, but in an opposite form. And what about the woman who doesn't think she's attractive? And the husband is like, oh, my goodness, you're as attractive as can be. Turn the lights on. But I hear this a great deal of, we can only have sex with lights off. And the husband, who is more visually driven, is like, come on, you're beautiful in this. What every woman wants is to be desired by their husband, and the wife just can't see it. How do you navigate that?

Barbara Wilson [00:23:59]:
Yeah, and that's kind of culturally driven with, you know, this idea of how a woman should look. And so we're. I mean, that's where it's a billion dollar industry to try to make us look. Look younger and. And slimmer. I see a lot of people in my office with that, you know, kind of just that whole body image. I think that's has a deeper root and needs some. Needs some help to kind of dissect and.

Blaine Neufeld [00:24:26]:
Let's dissect.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:27]:
It's hard for women, though, after you have babies. Like, your body changes so much. And even just from like five years to the next five years, like, you're not nursing anymore. So now you're breasts are down your belly button. You know, like, it's. And it is hard when you're on social media and you're like, these girls have glass skin and perky. You know, it's just. It's really hard.

Barbara Wilson [00:24:49]:
It is really hard.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:49]:
It's something I struggle with. I know in our marriage, it's like.

Blaine Neufeld [00:24:52]:
Well, literally this morning I was like, gosh, you are so beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Thompson [00:24:57]:
But what?

Blaine Neufeld [00:24:58]:
No, but, no, I'm not like.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:59]:
Or, I mean, you just always see the imperfections, you know? And I love it. He is so encouraging. And I want to be wanted, of course. But sometimes it's annoying. I'm like, okay, like, get your hands. Hands off. It's almost like. But it's really.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:25:12]:
It is a blessing. And I know that even though it can feel annoying. But a lot of women would desire that.

Barbara Wilson [00:25:16]:
I know, right, But. And I think you make a good point.

Kevin Thompson [00:25:19]:
But they can have him.

Barbara Wilson [00:25:23]:
But the husband constantly reassuring them, obviously sometimes, you know, can be like, you don't need to do it every day.

Barbara Wilson [00:25:30]:
That's a problem.

Barbara Wilson [00:25:30]:
But you know that. But building your wife up and making them feel beautiful and sexy to them and desirable. So I said last night, guys, use your words. Those are some of the words we, you know.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:25:42]:
Is it annoying, though, when I'm constantly like, ugh, like, no, I'm not.

Blaine Neufeld [00:25:46]:
Well, yeah, because one of the tensions that we have is, oh, I want to do this, I want to do that, to look younger, thinner, beautiful. Da, da, da, da. Who are you doing that for? Because I'm looking at you and saying, gosh, you couldn't be more beautiful. So that's where it feels jaded to me. Because it's like, who are you trying to impress if it's not me, me. Right. Myself or girlfriends.

Barbara Wilson [00:26:08]:
The girlfriends.

Blaine Neufeld [00:26:08]:
Like, it isn't this.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:09]:
It's not for other men.

Blaine Neufeld [00:26:10]:
This is an attention.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:12]:
It's not really.

Kevin Thompson [00:26:13]:
I get tired of the one I've got. Yeah.

Blaine Neufeld [00:26:18]:
But to flip the side, it's like, oh, I used to play hockey. Fitness was always a stress, and it's like a demanding thing. Then once I was done hockey, I was like, oh, thank goodness, I don't have to do any that anymore. It was such a negative experience. So then the other day, I was like, you know, the only reason that I would get fit again would be for you. And then she's like, okay, great.

Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:40]:
I was like, do it.

Blaine Neufeld [00:26:41]:
I was like, I don't know.

Barbara Wilson [00:26:44]:
Do I want it that way?

Blaine Neufeld [00:26:45]:
But it's both. And.

Kevin Thompson [00:26:46]:
Yeah, right.

Blaine Neufeld [00:26:47]:
So it's like, here I am. I'm being. Why don't you see my. Or hear my words? And she's like, well, why don't you see my desires? Right? And she doesn't want me to be some unhealthy form of, you know, addicted to working out. And it's just a healthy, healthy balance. Healthy balance. Right.

Barbara Wilson [00:27:04]:
I remember when I was younger when I had. Because I had twins first and so I was pregnant first a long time. And so I would get up at 6 o' clock in the morning and do you know when we do aerobics on the tv?

Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:17]:
Oh yeah, my mom was an aerobics instructor.

Barbara Wilson [00:27:19]:
I get up at 6 o' clock before the kids would get up or 6:30. My husband would drag out of bed and then lie on the couch and watch me.

Barbara Wilson [00:27:25]:
Yeah, come on, you lazy butt, get up.

Barbara Wilson [00:27:28]:
I know, and it's so funny now because I just kept doing it and then now he's out doing me with, doing 20 mile bike rides and staying really healthy and fit. And I love it now because we both really care now it's not. I mean, we want to look good for each other, but now it's about being healthy for our grandkids.

Barbara Wilson [00:27:47]:
Exactly.

Barbara Wilson [00:27:47]:
Staying around long enough to take care of each other.

Kevin Thompson [00:27:49]:
And it's a great way to spend time together.

Barbara Wilson [00:27:52]:
Oh, absolutely. Go to the gym together.

Kevin Thompson [00:27:53]:
Excellent way. And you're moving and you're not face to face and yet you can still communicate and you're having a shared experience. One of the great ways I think a couple can connect. Let's think through a couple of the questions that we went through and answered last night and just kind of answer them here in ways that were so meaningful. Let's hit with this idea of. First, make sure that we're very clear. The question was somewhat implied last night, if not directly asked. My wife doesn't have the right to tell me, no, we're married.

Kevin Thompson [00:28:26]:
I want sex, I get sex. Her body belongs to me. It kind of ticked me off. If you want to know the truth, step off. So let's be very clear here, Barbara, that's that a person retains the agency over their own lives. Being married does not mean I've lost my ability to say no. Now there is a responsibility, no question, to nurture together a happy, healthy sexual life. But left to our own devices, we have to honor the agency of the other person.

Barbara Wilson [00:28:59]:
Absolutely. And I think going back to your intimacy outside of the bedroom, obviously that's going to possibly a relationship that has lost any kind of friendship or sense of safety if there's that much pressure, that much control and power over the physical intimacy. And that's just a marriage that's going to break down. And I agree. It's spiritual abuse.

Kevin Thompson [00:29:24]:
Yeah. Okay, well, you're going to hear that. And what you're about to hear is we're about to go inside the worship center Bayside, Granite Bay for a little Q and a with Dr. Barbara Wilson and myself. Blaine was leading the questions. Tons of questions were texted. If you want to text a question in that we're going to look at, at, at a later episode, you can text marriage to 56316. That's marriage to 56316.

Kevin Thompson [00:29:43]:
Maybe we'll answer your question in an upcoming episode. But here is the Q and A of becoming friends, partners and lovers.

Barbara Wilson [00:29:50]:
I am Dr. Barbara Wilson. I'm a clinical psychologist. I'm an author, mainly writing about healing from your sexual past. I've been speaking and leading ministries here at Bayside for over 20 years, if you can believe it. And I really appreciated Kevin putting very 20 year old picture on the bulletin this week. I thanked him for that. So I'm also married to my college sweetheart.

Barbara Wilson [00:30:18]:
We've been married, we'll be married 44 years in June. We have seven adult children, three daughter in laws and seven grandkids. So we've got a lot, we've been through it all, we've got a lot under our belt. But sex wasn't always good for us. And that's what God used in my life to take me through some healing of my own from my own past. And that's what led to writing and speaking and helping others find healing as well. Now just a little aside note to that. I've also traumatized all of my children and you can be praying for them because I started teaching sexual health, going into schools and youth groups and talking about, you know, sexual health, saving sex for marriage.

Barbara Wilson [00:31:02]:
And so of course I went into all their youth groups and even their school classrooms, which I don't quite know if they've forgiven me for yet. But my youngest son for sure, who has moved away, I'm sure he doesn't want to, you know, he needs counseling, I'm sure. But I went into his ninth grade class here at Granite Bay. His teacher asked me to come in and do my curriculum. I used to write curriculum for high schools and colleges and things like that. And so I said, hey Brian, I'm coming into your class. How do you feel? And he said, okay, well that's okay, but just please don't, don't tell anybody your last name. I don't want them to know you're my mom.

Barbara Wilson [00:31:40]:
I said okay, fine. And he said, and please don't talk about anything that you and dad do. That would be so gross. And I said no problem there. And so I go in, it's a 90 minute class. He's sitting right here looking straight ahead. Never looked at me once. And at the end, you know, I left.

Barbara Wilson [00:31:57]:
I was coming back the next day, but. But he came home later after school and I said, so how did it go, Brian? He goes, well, it was going good. But then at the end of the class, one of the girls asked me, brian, that kind of looked like your mom. Was that your mom? And I said, oh no, I'm so sorry. What did you say? He said, well, I told her, I've never seen that woman before in my life. So that's how he handles it. That's how we handle it in the Wilson family. Just avoid and ignore.

Barbara Wilson [00:32:26]:
But tonight I want to give you a couple points on how to build a healthy sexual how to build a healthy sex life in your marriage. First of all, sex is God's idea. And he says it's very good. And he created it for marriage for many reasons. He designed it also to get better and more fulfilling throughout your life together. I think that's why the enemy loves to use this area in our life to destroy us. First of all, I think he tempts us before we get married to have lots of sex because he knows that's going to impact our ability to bond and have a good sexual intimacy in marriage. But then also once we get married, he tempts us to stop having sex in marriage.

Barbara Wilson [00:33:09]:
And in your handout, I share six of the purposes or ways that God uses sex in marriage for our good. First of all is to create life for intimacy. So that is that closeness, that intimate knowledge of each other, that two becoming one kind of intimacy for protection against temptation, for bonding, which we'll talk a little bit about for comfort and for pleasure. Now, because of time, I really want to focus on two of those. And one of those, the first one is creating life and the other one is bonding. So sex not only creates physical life, those little humans that then try to ruin your sex life, but sex also breathes this intimate life into your marriage. Not only with passion and fun and friendship, but I believe God uses this as a way to breathe life and passion into your relationship. I find that most couples that come to my practice that are struggling and looking for marriage counseling, they come for a variety of reasons, maybe communication or some kind of conflict that they can't resolve.

Barbara Wilson [00:34:23]:
But what's always interesting to me is a lot of them are not having sex. And I believe that God uses the sexual intimacy to help keep our marriages alive and passionate long into that relationship. But God also created sex for bonding. So this two becoming one flesh kind of bond. And even chemically, as Kevin was mentioning, you know, when we experience sexual arousal and orgasm in our marriages, we're releasing not only chemicals that create this attraction, kind of like it becomes a. Something that we bond our brains to, that we are attracted to each other, and they're the only person that we have experienced that kind of pleasure with. But also we release oxytocin. Oxytocin is a bonding hormone that's only released in high levels three times in a human when a woman gives birth, when a woman breastfeeds her baby.

Barbara Wilson [00:35:27]:
And it's also released in men and women during sexual arousal and release. And it's really a bonding hormone. And the interesting thing about oxytocin is that it helps create this stronger and stronger attachment within your relationship. And it creates that deepening of your love where you get that love gets stronger and deeper with each other. The other exciting thing about oxytocin is what keeps the excitement of sex kind of alive longer with that same partner, basically, until the, you know, eventually the partner stop working. But you would. We would. You can't believe how long that continues to go on.

Barbara Wilson [00:36:09]:
That just is something that God created that doesn't. Doesn't end too quickly.

Barbara Wilson [00:36:13]:
So.

Barbara Wilson [00:36:15]:
So the reason I'm telling you this is because I talk, you know, I talk to a lot of people who think that sex is really just primarily about the pressure, the pleasure, and that is definitely one reason. But the benefits go beyond that momentary release that God uses to glue us or bond us together in a way that no other relationship does. So you've heard that marriage takes work, but sometimes sex can take work, too, or can feel like work. But pushing through those feelings will be worth it. So in your handouts, I gave you some things that can hinder sex. We're not going to talk about all of those, but we will be talking about some. One is pornography. And whether on your own or during sex, abuse in marriage, any kind of abuse, emotional neglect.

Barbara Wilson [00:37:08]:
Kevin has been talking a little bit about that. Emotional intimacy, which is really important. Any kind of addictions, past abuse or trauma, past sexual partners that we might have created a bond to children, especially in those younger years, can make it challenging. Fatigue, busyness, medical issues. There's a variety of medical issues that can be hindrances to sex. There's painful intercourse at times for women, but all of these things can be treated. Hormonal changes, the dreaded menopause. I always find it interesting that Men, the word men is in that word.

Barbara Wilson [00:37:50]:
And then also erectile dysfunction for men. Those are all things that can hinder sexual intimacy in marriage. But again, they are all treatable. And sometimes I find that it's just a little scary to go and talk to your doctor about some of the things that really you could find to be helpful for your intimacy in your marriage. And so don't be afraid to do that. So, so what I want to. I want to just kind of give you three kind of little tips, you know, just for time, things that can help build a healthier sex life. First of all, keep it clean.

Barbara Wilson [00:38:26]:
So I'm not just talking about our bodies, but also our minds. So of course you want to be clean and have something that smells nice. But also we want to keep our minds just for each other. We want to keep our minds clean, which means no pornography. So I think pornography is one of the great things, evils in our whole timeline of human history, just because of how it's impacted not only how we see each other and how we view sex, but how we then become where we mistreat each other. And not only that, with pornography, we also start to create a bond to those images. We can actually train our brain to respond to pornography, like Pavlov when needed. The dog and the bell.

Barbara Wilson [00:39:12]:
We can actually start to train our brain to be aroused by that which then can interfere with the enjoyment of each other. We actually start wanting those images or needing those images to create that, to release that same level of chemical in our brains that create that enjoyment for sex. And so I think God is pretty clear about, you know, sexual intimacy just being between a husband and wife and not including others and that including images. Recent studies have shown that pornography in a marriage can be one of the roots of many of the divorces. In fact, over 50% of divorces have pornography at its root. The other problem with pornography is we often can bring that into our relationship or we're thinking about that during sex, and so we're not being present with our spouse. And then we might have to bring some of the things in to enhance our sexual intimacy because we can't be present with our spouse. I want to encourage you, if this is you, please seek professional help.

Barbara Wilson [00:40:23]:
Something like celebrate recovery for addiction. Because God has a plan to heal you. He doesn't want this as a part of your marriage. He wants to heal you, but you can't do this on your own. I talk a lot to young people and I am concerned with their view of pornography, that it's not a big deal. They're not having sex with anyone. They're not going to hurt anyone. But I'm trying to teach them and train them that they are hurting their brains.

Barbara Wilson [00:40:50]:
They are starting to train their brains and that will impact their future relationship. And my heart goes out and so. And God cares so much about this area. And it's just, it's everywhere now. It's so hard to not go to anything online, to not see something that draws you into that. And I just really encourage you to take that seriously. And if that's going on in your marriage, in your life, I encourage you that God can heal. Secondly, I encourage you to have it often and make it fun.

Barbara Wilson [00:41:28]:
So how do we do that? So we schedule date nights. I hope you're doing date nights, but it's also okay to schedule sex. Now, I know that sounds not very much fun and I don't want to necessarily dish on spontaneity because that can be fun too. But life gets busy and things happen. So if something is important, we put it on the calendar. Scheduling can also build anticipation and help us prepare ourselves mentally. I think women especially, you know, mentally, that helps us prepare and it can add fun for both the husband and the wife. You know, we plan for lots of things, parties, vacations, birthdays.

Barbara Wilson [00:42:16]:
And the planning can be part of the excitement, just like sex. The other thing is have some variety. So, you know, there's. I think I called it, you know, drive through the quickies, there's the steady home cooked, you know, the regular sex, and then there's romantic sex. And so those are the more gourmet, where you take a little bit extra time and they're all good and okay, take some turns each month planning something special. A special romantic sexual encounter where you're doing something special that you're not just. It's not just about the sexual intimacy, but you're planning a date or you're planning something special that makes that a longer, more enjoyable experience where you're really becoming more intimate, sharing things. Also frequency.

Barbara Wilson [00:43:13]:
Kevin talked a little bit about that and I totally agree. Being more intimate, physically intimate, outside the bedroom will definitely can lead to more frequency inside the bedroom. So my recommendation, based on all of the things that we talked about, why God created sex and the purpose for inside marriage, I think at least a minimum of one time a week is really important for that bonding, to feel close, for that protection, for that comfort, for all of those things that we talked about. I'd say a healthy marriage is having sex two to Three times a week. Now, when I have couples come into my office, for those that aren't having sex at all, I say start with one time a week and maybe try scheduling it if that's helpful for you. If you're the one that likes to pass on sex, you're the one that's always wanting to say no or you're trying to avoid it. You don't want to. You know, you try to hide somewhere in the house when your husband or wife wants sex.

Barbara Wilson [00:44:19]:
Try to say yes more than no. Think of the many reasons for sex if you need convincing. And if you do say no, offer an alternative, like, how about tomorrow night? So. And the funny joke in our house is, my husband says, my favorite night to have sex is tomorrow night. So. And that is not true. But also, guys, please use your word. We women cannot read minds.

Barbara Wilson [00:44:50]:
If you're cuddling with us, maybe you're just cuddling, or maybe you want sex. Which is it? Let us know the other thing. Start making love in the morning on your way out the door. This is one of the things that we do. And this is funny because my husband did say to me, you're not going to talk about anything we do, are you? Just like my son. It was just hilarious that he said the same thing. But.

Kevin Thompson [00:45:15]:
But.

Barbara Wilson [00:45:16]:
So my husband will give me a little tap and a passionate kiss, and then he'll say, tonight, baby. And that works for us. I don't know if that would work for you. But then when we get home, he'll have my favorite takeout and drink waiting for me. And that is just build some anticipation and excitement for us. If you've got young kids, you might want to have code names for that activity or time together that can protect your children from hearing anything that they shouldn't. I think building anticipation for that sexual intimacy can also be such a great part of that emotional intimacy, too, because you're learning to trust each other and you're preparing for something that is very special. Also, most men are aroused visually, and I'm obviously speaking generally, but in general, most women are aroused more by touch and romance and words.

Barbara Wilson [00:46:24]:
And so just remember that. Next, explore those bodies. Discover new ways to arouse each other. It's not always about the grand finale. Get to know each other. Take time to explore, enjoy. That is part of the intimacy that is part of enjoying each other. It is part of that connection.

Barbara Wilson [00:46:49]:
Also, I love to recommend people try to connect four times a day with a hug, a kiss, a hello first thing in the morning. When you wake up when you leave, for the day, when you return and before you turn out the light, four times a day. Imagine if you just connected those four times a day and let your spouse know, I see you, I'm here for you. And you have those touches, you have those connections, eye to eye connections. You'll begin to start to feel more connected and more emotionally connected to each other and already starting to develop that intimacy. The other thing is go to bed together. I know that that's not always possible, but if you can, as much as you can, try to go to bed together, I think there's nothing that says more togetherness than, you know, using that time in the evening, even if you're just not falling asleep yet. But being in bed together, maybe it's just you're reading or you're talking, you know, or having sex.

Barbara Wilson [00:47:55]:
But being together, going to bed together creates this kind of, I don't know, it feels safe, it feels nice. We're going to bed together. I realize that sometimes with some schedules, that's not possible. I do hear a lot more of people sleeping in separate bedrooms and separate beds because of snoring, because of medical issues. And of course, you know, that is. Those are all valid, valid things to be in separate locations. But as much as you can, try to be in bed together, try to go to bed together. I know that my husband and I, we have done that our whole married life whenever, whenever we're home together.

Barbara Wilson [00:48:38]:
And it just becomes a wonderful connection time for both of us. So we talked about keeping it clean, making it frequent, and making it fun. But first of all, all of these things that we've talked about really just depend upon my next point, and that is keeping it safe. Kevin talked a little bit about that, but I want to go on and talk about how do we keep our intimacy safe emotionally, physically, and sexually. So in therapy, we talk about being available with couples. Are you available to each other? Are you responsive to each other? When we have needs? Are you emotionally engaged with your spouse? The acronym is A R E R. Are you available? Are you responsive? And are you emotionally engaged? That's when we need each other. We reach over and we know our spouse is there for us.

Barbara Wilson [00:49:39]:
They're going to respond in a way that makes us feel safe and connected, and they're going to be emotionally engaged. There's a lot of things today that will inhibit that emotional engagement. And one of them is, of course, our phones. Being on, Being on the Internet, being on our phones, the phone, I think, is one of the biggest ways now that we can feel disconnected emotionally. And when your spouse is needing you, when you want to talk to them, when you have something important to say, you want to know that you can reach out to them and they're going to be there for you, they're going to be responsive to what you need and they're going to engage you emotionally. Don't expect to ignore your spouse all day and then want to get it on that night. That's just not right and it's not fair. Women especially need to feel emotionally safe and connected to be able to feel vulnerable for sex.

Barbara Wilson [00:50:34]:
And it's also why we like time to allow our minds to be prepared for that. You know, working moms, they have a lot of things on their mind and then they crash into bed at night and the last thing on their mind is sex. Usually they're probably thinking about what they also have to need, what they need to do tomorrow. Now, the guys, you may have been thinking about sex since you got up that morning, but you know, your wife has not been prepared. And I just. That might be something that might be helpful, at least talk about. Is that something that could be helpful preparing your mentally and emotionally each other to enjoy sexual intimacy? We need to speak and treat each other, speak to and treat each other kindly. There's nothing that kills sex more than harsh, critical words.

Barbara Wilson [00:51:28]:
Also honoring each other during sex and in the bedroom, if one says, hey, this is really not my thing, then we need to honour that. No pressure to do things that feel uncomfortable, that feel maybe degrading, and being able to talk about that. You know, it is interesting, I think as couples we're having sex, but it's very uncomfortable to talk about sex. Even with couples, it's very uncomfortable to do that. And that's one of the things that we need to learn how to do more. Being able to be comfortable talking about what feels good for us, what we don't like, and maybe some things that might be fun to add in that would not be, that the other person would feel okay with. And sometimes we feel uncomfortable talking about that. And that is a really important way to begin.

Barbara Wilson [00:52:26]:
In fact, on your handout, I gave you a few questions to start talking about some of these things. How satisfied are you with your sexual intimacy? What are some things you think might be hindering that? And what are some things that would be helpful to be able to increase that or to improve that? The other one is learn each other's love language. You all know what the love languages are, right? And that's just really, really important to find out. How does your spouse feel loved? Is it with words of affirmation or gifts or physical touch? Quality time? Those things, Those are all important. These are conversations that we should be having and continuing to have. And finally, this is more my area where I have some expertise in is do you have past trauma, sexual trauma, childhood sexual trauma? Has there been other sexual experiences that you have experienced or been exposed to that are impacting your ability to feel safe during sexual intimacy, even with your spouse? If that's true, then sex can feel dirty for you or unpleasant or painful. It can trigger negative memories of the past. Also, if you've had negative experiences in past relationships, you've had sex in past relationships.

Barbara Wilson [00:53:57]:
All of that you can bring into your marriage. That can inhibit your ability to feel safe with your spouse, to feel that sex is safe and to be able to enjoy it. And especially if there's been abuse in your past, it's very hard to want to be present because it can trigger a lot of negative painful memories. Sometimes memories of even childhood abuse don't get triggered often until marriage or until you have a child. And so sometimes that sexual intimacy can be some of that trigger. And that can be really scary when you don't know what's going on. But I would encourage you to, if this is coming up for you, to address that and not just to keep going and pretend that it's not an issue. You're going to need healing to be able to rewire what the past has done to your brain.

Barbara Wilson [00:54:52]:
And if you're the spouse of this one, then being supportive and encouraging and safe, you're going to be able to help your spouse heal. Just a little personal. I know this was my challenge in my marriage, and we'd been married like 20 years, and I was still struggling with sexual intimacy. But I didn't know why. It didn't really. Wasn't really fun for me. And I couldn't talk about it with anyone because I thought I must be the only one. And my husband wasn't having a problem just with me.

Barbara Wilson [00:55:29]:
And I couldn't figure out why until, you know, God started leading me through healing. And I realized that my first sexual experience wasn't. It wasn't consensual, although this was someone I was dating and I cared about. We were both Christians and I was young. What happened was this person really forced himself on me, but I did not even realize that at the time, not even for the next 20 years did I realize until God began to take me through healing and Showing me that my issue with sexual intimacy had to do with that first experience. And that led to other choices that I needed also to heal from. But when I was willing to take that time and go through that really hard pain of going through that healing for that, God really, really healed that for me and really made the difference in our relationship. Not only just taking away that negative impact on my life, but also being able to change my brain about sexual intimacy and how God saw it, because I didn't see it as something that was really valuable in marriage.

Barbara Wilson [00:56:42]:
And that really changed for me, especially seeing God's plan for us. It's so amazing. Like, God is so amazing that he would give this type of sexual intimacy or intimacy in a marriage that really has multipurpose for us, not just pleasure, but to create life in our marriage and to protect us from going outside of our marriage to be a comfort for us, as well as this incredible attachment and bond that only gets stronger and stronger. And that's what God wants for us. He wants that intimacy and deepening of our love to grow and grow, because that's, you know, that's our testimony really to the world that, you know, God is faithful and. And he's good, and he has created something that is so good. And, you know, your children, they need to know that God created something amazing for marriage and your grandchildren. And so what you do in your life, the healing that you're willing to go through for yourself, you're gonna pass on to your children, to your grandchildren, it's not just about you.

Barbara Wilson [00:57:49]:
There's a world that is very much hurting in this area of sexual intimacy. And they need to know that there is healing and there is hope. Before Kevin comes out, I want to talk about my books. Kevin sells more books than me, so I want to take this opportunity to promote my book. So I have a book for marriage. It's called Kiss Me Restoring Loss Intimacy in Marriage. And I wrote this after leading, taking a lot of women through healing for their past and discovering that as women healed from their past, their marriages were improving, especially in their area of emotional and physical intimacy. And so this is great for couples if one or both of you have things that you have brought into your marriage from your past, whether your own choices, past relationships, sexual abuse, or trauma.

Barbara Wilson [00:58:41]:
This is a great book to be able to work through together. There's a study guide in the back that creates discussion where you can have, you know, opens up conversation, gives you things to talk about. This was my first book, the Invisible how to Break Free from Your sexual past. And this is good for men or women, but also young people. If you have teenagers in your house, that could be a good one or a single friend. And also this is a study I've written that I take women through. It's a very comprehensive 12 week study to help women heal from a variety of things in their past, including anything sexual. I also have one written for men.

Barbara Wilson [00:59:21]:
And. And so you don't get away with that. You get to do that too, if that's something that has happened to you. Because men have been sexually abused as young children too. It's becoming a greater and greater statistic, which I also believe pornography really fuels the abuse of children. Abuse of children and women. So that's what I encourage you tonight. That's just a little bit snippet of how God wants to bless your marriages and bless your life with intimacy emotionally in this physical intimacy that only is really blessed inside a marriage relationship.

Barbara Wilson [01:00:03]:
And God does want to bless that for each one of you.

Kevin Thompson [01:00:06]:
So can we thank Barbara? All right, well, get your phones out. Many of you have already been getting texting in questions. We got a lot of questions coming in, so we're going to have fun. Barbara, you're going to answer them and I'm going to pay attention as we're right beside you.

Barbara Wilson [01:00:22]:
Thanks for calling me the expert.

Kevin Thompson [01:00:25]:
Don't you love that? And so you can text in marriage to 56316 and questions we don't get to. We're going to be in studio Blaine, Adrian, Barbara and I tomorrow for Change the Odds where we're shooting the intros for these. So all these will be available on the podcast on Apple or Spotify. So make sure you follow that. Like that, that. But we're going to shoot an extra episode in which we're going to answer some of these questions. So Blaine is out there. He has some questions that are ready.

Kevin Thompson [01:00:52]:
You can be texting in as well. I have one. Blaine and I were looking backstage, so I have one that I know was texted in and I want to make sure that you answer. And so it kind of is on the frequency topic, which I know is an important topic. And so this person texts in and says, how long should I wait after my wife has appendicitis? I think.

Barbara Wilson [01:01:13]:
I think that's up to your wife, actually.

Kevin Thompson [01:01:17]:
I think they really want to know the answer. We're kidding.

Blaine Neufeld [01:01:24]:
Are we though?

Kevin Thompson [01:01:28]:
Okay, Blaine.

Blaine Neufeld [01:01:29]:
All right, here we go. In marriage, there's a difference between. Is there a difference between disrespect and jealousy? Is There a good way to explain to a spouse, especially with some of the of these opposite sex coworkers, I guess there's some tension in there. Jealousy, disrespect co workers.

Kevin Thompson [01:01:50]:
Yeah, I think, I mean, my first thought on jealousy is we have to look at is there something with my spouse, are there actions that they have taken that now create a doubt within me? If so, those have to be confronted or there also has to be the question of they've done nothing but from my past wounds, now I'm insecure in what's going on. And so to diagnose the difference there I think is extremely important. And then I do think jealousy is a different aspect than respect. But I think they're all intermingled in such a way that it's such a serious topic. We have to get to the root of what is actually going on. And then whenever we're talking about co workers, what are the agreed to boundaries that we have? One thing we talk about all the time is you have to have a shared language. And so whenever I talk about being faithful and Jenny talks about being faithful, we need to define what that means to make sure that we're both on the same page of what faithfulness means. And so if for me it means I'm never going to be in a lengthy texting conversation with a person of the opposite sex unless my wife knows about.

Kevin Thompson [01:03:03]:
But Jenny has a different definition. I literally could be unfaithful to her definition and maybe we haven't discussed it in a proper way. So I think with the co workers, it's a boundary question that needs to be discussed. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Barbara Wilson [01:03:16]:
Yeah, I agree. I think that it can be based on the history of their relationship. Have there been other things that have happened that create that distrust? And sometimes with jealousy it can be controlled or it can just be that anxious attachment where you know, they're worried of any little thing that happens that makes them feel like there's a threat to their relationship, that's good.

Blaine Neufeld [01:03:45]:
If my partner is asking for another chance after betraying trust, but truly wants to be better. However, their actions in the beginning remind me of my ex and I'm afraid to trust again. What do I do do?

Kevin Thompson [01:03:59]:
Yeah.

Barbara Wilson [01:04:00]:
Barbara. Well, hold on, wait a minute. So if the ex was unfaithful, not this, not the current.

Blaine Neufeld [01:04:06]:
So it's the current one has had betraying trust, but there's also a relationship previous to that where an ex would have reminded them of this action as well. Do we go for it again? Or what do we do?

Barbara Wilson [01:04:21]:
Okay, do you, Are you following?

Kevin Thompson [01:04:24]:
Uh huh. Okay, I have thoughts.

Barbara Wilson [01:04:26]:
Okay, go.

Kevin Thompson [01:04:27]:
But I like your opinions better. So here's my thought. First of all, so you have a relationship where trust has been broken against a person that has this history in their past. That's always a serious issue. This is now even more complicated because of the wounds that's gonna be in me as an individual. I would have questions. So I'm speaking solely to the person who has been betrayed not only in the past, but then also in the present. Couple questions I would have.

Kevin Thompson [01:04:57]:
Are they married? If the answer is no, this is my opinion. This is not gospel. This is my opinion. If you are dating somebody that's unfaithful, they have lost their chance to be in a relationship with you.

Barbara Wilson [01:05:12]:
In my opinion, yes, I agree.

Kevin Thompson [01:05:14]:
It's done. Doesn't mean that they're a bad person. It doesn't mean anything. It means you lost that chance. I feel very sorry for you. I'm gonna move on to the next situation now. If they are married, then there are some different responsibilities here. And so I would say if this is a person that is married, trust has been broken.

Kevin Thompson [01:05:33]:
If an affair has taken place, you recognize you get a choice here. You get a choice. If you want to leave, you can leave. If you want to give it another chance, I think you're welcome to. Professional help, I think is extremely important. And then also a recognition of. I'm not expecting all out perfection in every area, but there are certain boundaries I have that I will not go back to. All communication has to be cut off with that person.

Kevin Thompson [01:05:57]:
If it's not, I'm done. There has to be clear growth that is taking place again, not imperfection. As a matter of fact, part of that growth is how you handle imperfection. How whenever you make a mistake, do you confess it, do you own it, do you make progress, that kind of thing. If that person is making progress, then okay, I'll continue to work, walk the route recognizing. Because here's what I would think. Let's say right now you don't know if this relationship is over or not. You don't have to make that decision right now.

Kevin Thompson [01:06:26]:
You can wait and see. Is this person going to show that they're going to work on the situation or not and I can walk with them and then if I get further down the road and it's just, I just can't do it or they're not making the progress I think they need, then at that moment that I'm out So I'd say if they're dating, it's over. If they're married, you have some choices, but they have to show some growth. And here's what's difficult. If they cannot do so, if they are not willing to do so, then unfortunately, as long as they're cheating on you, they're not going to be truly married to you. And so I think you're going to have to go your separate ways under the biblical ability. What's your thought?

Barbara Wilson [01:07:04]:
I couldn't have said it better.

Kevin Thompson [01:07:05]:
Oh, there we go. Thank you, Kevin. I think on certain answers, it should stand for the barber's approval. And then other times I should answer things. You should be going. Go ahead, Blaine.

Blaine Neufeld [01:07:18]:
Okay. How do we set intimacy goals that don't come across as condemning ideas or standards or you feeling judged?

Kevin Thompson [01:07:26]:
Yeah. So how can we improve intimacy without it becoming a scorecard?

Barbara Wilson [01:07:33]:
Right. Well, that's the intimacy that you talked about that emotional intimacy, where it's not as, you know, contract or I did this. So you do. You should do this. Right. So it's. How safe do you feel? Are you able to communicate that? Because. Yeah, that does not create, you know, that does not create intimacy.

Kevin Thompson [01:07:57]:
Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the orgasm gap for a moment. That's become a hot topic.

Blaine Neufeld [01:08:02]:
Right, let's.

Kevin Thompson [01:08:04]:
No, is that. Are y' all not thinking about all that? No, it's Sheila, Greg walk. Right. Another Canadian. I'm swearing my Canadians.

Blaine Neufeld [01:08:13]:
You guys are welcome Canadians.

Kevin Thompson [01:08:17]:
She did a research and a study to see that There is a 47% gap in orgasm frequency in intimacy between men and women, between husbands and wives. 47% of the gap, which she relates to a great deal of all the tension that comes over frequency. What she has found is basically, if the woman enjoys sex, many of the frequency discussions become minimized. They're not as serious. So for the average couple out here, is it the expectation of both should orgasm every time? Is it the expectation of generally over a week? We have something on our marriage assessment of in the average month, is it about the same amount of time for men and women? Yes or no? And so what's your thought on that?

Barbara Wilson [01:09:03]:
Yeah, I don't think that there needs to be both orgasming every time, you know, because. Because it's still an emotional and physical connection. Even if, let's say, just one of you is orgasming or you're doing that to help that one person, but it's still a gift of love and connection with each other.

Kevin Thompson [01:09:27]:
But would you say in the average Month that there needs to be some similarity, because I think my fear is sex, when it goes wrong, oftentimes becomes solely about the man's experience. Experience. How do we balance that without it turning into a. What's the score this month? Okay, well, we got to work on that. I mean, you don't want that scoreboard mentality.

Barbara Wilson [01:09:48]:
Well, and I think for women, you know, also the pressure to have an orgasm every time, if that's something that they're, you know, struggling with, that also can inhibit, you know, their ability to just calm down enough to be able to mentally get into that space. And again, sometimes that just takes time, you know, like learning each other's bodies and learning what helps. And what can help, especially the woman get into that place where they, you know, she can relax enough because their mind, you know, your mind is so full. And so a woman really does need to concentrate a little bit more on what's happening. And, you know, it's just not quite. Not. Not quite the same as the man's experience. You know, in my experience, you know, I do work with women who have trouble, you know, with orgasm.

Barbara Wilson [01:10:47]:
And so sometimes having some things that can help with that, you know, can be helpful where they're not always having to make sure that your husband is creating that orgasm. But you.

Kevin Thompson [01:10:59]:
So, I mean, what would be some things? Like, I don't.

Barbara Wilson [01:11:02]:
Well, like, some things that can help. I don't know. We're basically.

Kevin Thompson [01:11:08]:
Hey, these are questions I can ask when Ray's not here, right? I mean, seriously, it's a Wednesday night. We can talk like adults.

Barbara Wilson [01:11:16]:
Like, what would be, like, vibrators for a woman to help? Because it's just such a delicate area of the body that doesn't always respond exactly the way you want it to or to certain touches. And so sometimes women, you know, you need to be able to educate your husband to be able to simulate that, or you might be able to kind of help each other do that. It doesn't have to just be all one way, right? There's. There's so much. There's a great deal of freedom in the. In. In that intimacy. Again, as long as you're not doing something that is.

Barbara Wilson [01:11:53]:
Is uncomfortable or dishonoring to the other person, but helping each other be able to experience that pleasure and doing whatever is helpful is. I think that's honoring and it's part of the fun. And honestly, the longer you're married, you learn more and more how to do that in a comfortable way and an honoring way. So don't be Afraid to try some different things?

Kevin Thompson [01:12:23]:
No. And. And we have some great resources. I can send it out in the email vibrators. No, no. Can you imagine? Oh, my goodness.

Blaine Neufeld [01:12:33]:
Evan. Side hustle.

Kevin Thompson [01:12:34]:
That was not where I was.

Blaine Neufeld [01:12:37]:
Next question.

Barbara Wilson [01:12:38]:
I'm really glad Ray's not here. Say sex on Sunday morning.

Kevin Thompson [01:12:41]:
That's. Yeah, I wasn't even allowed to say sex on Sunday morning, so. But we have. So we can. We can send you through some good books and resources, Christian resources that talk about these issues to assist you. And that's. So you're not just searching. I mean, don't Google it is what I'm trying to.

Kevin Thompson [01:12:59]:
Is basically what I'm trying to say. There were several questions that were texted in very early on specifically, and not all the questions were this way, but here was a common theme. Multiple people had asked. And it was this marriage in their 70s or 80s, husband not able to perform. Now. Now there feels like a total lack of intimacy. And she's asking, what do we do? Does it have to be this way? How would you answer that?

Barbara Wilson [01:13:24]:
Well, again, I mean, it doesn't always have to be intercourse. Again, there's other ways to enjoy each other and to have pleasure and to have an orgasm. So again, being willing to try new things and like you said, sometimes reading some books, books that can be helpful, that kind of broaden your especially good Christian books on sex that can broaden, you know, maybe giving you some ideas that you might not have even thought that might be helpful that you can explore together and talk about together. I think I give some really good resources. I think I gave some in the handout. One of them is, you know, isn't. There's one that. By the Penners.

Barbara Wilson [01:14:03]:
They write some great stuff. The. Was it the Christian Guy's Guide to Great Sex?

Kevin Thompson [01:14:10]:
Yeah, I think it's on the back of the handout. I think there's several books that are.

Barbara Wilson [01:14:12]:
There, and those are like, some specific, you know, help on, you know, how to explore if you're struggling, you know, you know, being able to have orgasm or to being able to have that connection. I think sometimes.

Barbara Wilson [01:14:28]:
Yeah.

Barbara Wilson [01:14:28]:
And it's also. I think we think that we have to all both orgasm at the same time. That's just. Okay. That's heaven. Maybe, but I don't know. Like, it's not gonna happen every time. So don't put a lot of pressure on each other.

Barbara Wilson [01:14:45]:
You're gonna find your way and just enjoy. Don't put a lot of stress on each other.

Kevin Thompson [01:14:50]:
Gottman says that 25% of attempts at intimacy fail in some way. And so it's the idea, it's planned. And, you know, I ate too much or the kid came in or whatever. And so to begin to understand that it's not going to work every time. And that's okay. And that's an aspect of what goes on.

Blaine Neufeld [01:15:10]:
Okay, this one is in lines of kind of two ships passing at the night. So both are on different schedules. What are some trips and tick tips.

Kevin Thompson [01:15:19]:
Careful. Hello. What happened to that Canadian who doesn't need work here anymore?

Blaine Neufeld [01:15:25]:
Well, getting all nervous over here.

Kevin Thompson [01:15:27]:
I'm seeing a Q and A. I.

Barbara Wilson [01:15:29]:
Can'T understand your accent.

Blaine Neufeld [01:15:33]:
Anyway, they're on different schedules. What do you guys got from.

Barbara Wilson [01:15:37]:
Yeah, different schedules. Like somebody works through the night, somebody works through the day. So that's where you might need a quickie somewhere in there. Or plan an opportunity.

Kevin Thompson [01:15:50]:
Let's make a list of things that we're not supposed to say. I love it. Can we check off the list?

Barbara Wilson [01:15:56]:
I know.

Kevin Thompson [01:15:57]:
I think that idea of what you.

Barbara Wilson [01:15:58]:
Were talking about, it's turning red up.

Kevin Thompson [01:15:58]:
Here, what you were talking about. And we talk about it in the guidebook as well of the scheduled element of this of some people whenever I. So I talk about in friends, partners and lovers that you need spontaneous sex, scheduled sex, and maintenance sex. And so spontaneous is. You understand, right? Like you go out, you have a great time, you feel close, you get home, like this feels good. Right. Maintenance really is. One has a higher drive than the other.

Kevin Thompson [01:16:25]:
Okay, let's do this for you. But scheduled sex, a lot of people look at and go, oh my goodness, that sounds so boring and so horrible. And I'm like, alright, then we're not going to schedule Christmas from now on. And yet Christmas is one of the best seasons because it is the sense of anticipation. And so there's nothing wrong with this concept of what do our schedules look like and how can we schedule this time? Because what it shows is we're prioritizing each other. And one thing Gottman says, he says if you take adultery, addiction and abuse out of the picture, that for the average couple, where that trauma is kind of out of the picture, sex comes down to a very simple thing. Friends who prioritize it. That's it.

Kevin Thompson [01:17:11]:
I would say friends and partners who prioritize it is all it comes down to. To. Because if you have the friendship and the partnership and now let's make this an important part of our relationship, then you'll figure it out. Because here's the thing. This is a horrible Example, if you were having an affair, you have different schedules, and you figure it out. And so if you want it, you'll make it happen. And so I think it's now for the couple to prioritize this in a way to begin to. And literally, the quickie, the planning, all of that can add to the excitement, I think, of what's going on.

Blaine Neufeld [01:17:52]:
Okay, we'll turn the corner here a little bit. My spouse discourages any reference to my late spouse because they view it as having another person potentially in the relationship. How do we deal with that?

Barbara Wilson [01:18:05]:
Well, yeah, it's kind of feels like comparison maybe.

Kevin Thompson [01:18:11]:
Yeah. So difficult of. I mean, thankfully, we don't have experience in this area yet at this moment, but I can only imagine if something were to happen to Jenny and I do get remarried, it doesn't in any way change my love for Jenny. And so the idea that. I mean, I don't know, I can't fathom the idea that I don't have the space to mention her or to still have that aspect of my life. And yet I get. I get the difficulty of that. But how would you.

Kevin Thompson [01:18:45]:
If you were counseling with a couple and so he's not allowed to bring her up or she's not allowed to bring him up.

Barbara Wilson [01:18:51]:
Well, if I was counseling, I would want to know why. What's happening? Why does that create discomfort for that person? Is it too much? Are they talking about them too much? Is there a comparison going on? You know, and so that would be my first, you know, kind of question and kind of getting to the root of why this is, you know, why this is so painful. You know, I've had situations where with, you know, with couples that are married, but there's the ex boyfriend or an ex, also an ex husband. Not. They're not passed away, but they're still living where there's a lot of difficulty seeing them or talking about them, which I can understand. So trying to eliminate, you know, pictures in the house that create those kind of memories. But. And then also, why is the other person talking a lot about their late spouse? You know, once in a while is obviously appropriate, but is there too much of that? And why is that?

Kevin Thompson [01:19:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. Blaine, one question I see here is there's a question about the phrase work husband and work wife wife. That. I mean, no judgment here, and I get the joking around of it. That is a phrase Jenny and I would never, ever use. The implication of it. I'm just uncomfortable with that type of implication to say, oh, yeah, she's my work Wife and work husband.

Kevin Thompson [01:20:23]:
It's just such a. Especially in this world where those roles are already intermingled. I mean, the most likely person you are to have an affair with is your co. Worker. Worker. That's just not language I'm willing to take part in. And I get the. I'm not judging anybody that uses that.

Kevin Thompson [01:20:37]:
I get the jokes of it, but I just think that's a dangerous road to go down with somebody the opposite sex of that. I mean, I might call Blaine my work wife. Whoa, whoa. That would be a difficult. Because you take care of things, get it done. You're right. I like that. But no, that's just language I would be very hesitant to use.

Kevin Thompson [01:20:54]:
Blaine.

Blaine Neufeld [01:20:55]:
Okay. My spouse wants to do sexual things in our marriage that I do not feel comfortable doing. He uses 1st Corinthians 7:4. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does.

Kevin Thompson [01:21:08]:
Okay.

Blaine Neufeld [01:21:09]:
No, it's.

Kevin Thompson [01:21:10]:
Yeah, okay. So that's okay. Okay.

Blaine Neufeld [01:21:14]:
Okay. We're gonna let this settle for you.

Kevin Thompson [01:21:16]:
So here's the thing. So if I'm saying, hey, I wanna do this, and she says, no, and I say, well, I have authority over you, then. Okay, Then she says, well, the Bible says I have authority over you, so you really don't want it. Like, it doesn't work that way. That is not the meaning of that passage. And here's. Let's be honest. That is spiritual abuse.

Kevin Thompson [01:21:46]:
Yes, that is spiritual abuse that we cannot go down. Here's the thing. If my spouse is uncomfortable with a sexual act, we are not engaging in that sexual act. There's reasons for that. Now. Now we might get with Barbara and begin to talk about what are the reasons behind that and is there past trauma and can we work through that? All those kind of things. But safety is such an integral part of the sexual relationship. And if a person does not feel safe, they cannot engage in a healthy way.

Kevin Thompson [01:22:23]:
And so I think that's a very dangerous road to go down. And I think not only is it spiritual views. Let me be clear. From a theological standpoint, it is all out heresy. That is as poor of biblical interpretation as I can possibly imagine. And so it's wrong in every way.

Barbara Wilson [01:22:39]:
Absolutely. Yep.

Kevin Thompson [01:22:41]:
But what would you say about that idea of he wants something she doesn't? How do you negotiate that? I mean, let's face it. I mean, you do this as well. I've had questions of she's uncomfortable with oral. Add that to the list.

Barbara Wilson [01:22:57]:
You didn't say sexy.

Blaine Neufeld [01:22:58]:
I've got one more.

Kevin Thompson [01:23:01]:
And yet he's like, but isn't this normal? And so how would a couple work through something like that again?

Barbara Wilson [01:23:08]:
Yeah, just conversation. As long as it's. So when I work with couples, Christian couples, it's like, okay, what does the Bible actually prohibit certain things? Right. Pornography is one. Bringing other people into your relationship, and there's a variety of other things. So as long as it's not, like, something that is completely prohibited. The reason I am concerned about it is because I feel like with pornography, then people want to bring that into their sexual relationship and kind of act that out, because that's what kind of they've trained their brain to enjoy. And that's where I get concerned.

Barbara Wilson [01:23:44]:
Where is this coming from? Is there a source or a root of that that is really, you know, kind of dishonoring? You're already bringing something else into the relationship, and now you're, you know, projecting that onto your spouse. That is really dishonoring. But if it's not, if it's not in that category, then, you know, Paul says in First Corinthians, you know, everything is beneficial as long as, you know, everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. So then you just talk about it. Why does this not feel comfortable? And it's conversation again, which is what we have a difficult time having. But, yeah, some things can be. Are perfectly fine, just uncomfortable for someone. And that would be interesting to find out why.

Kevin Thompson [01:24:35]:
And so go back in the guidebook and look at the chapter on sex, and there's a section in there about how do we talk about. Because I would say for many couples, that is the biggest issue. Many of us grew up in spaces and places where it just wasn't natural to talk about it. So how do you begin those conversations? I think becomes a powerful thing. Let's do one more, Blaine.

Blaine Neufeld [01:24:54]:
One more. Okay. I got so many good ones, though. So you guys are gonna have to listen to the podcast.

Kevin Thompson [01:25:00]:
We got a podcast tomorrow.

Blaine Neufeld [01:25:01]:
Good. Men need to be vulnerable with their women. But is there a point where a man can be too vulnerable?

Barbara Wilson [01:25:10]:
Men can be vulnerable with women.

Blaine Neufeld [01:25:11]:
Men should be vulnerable. But is there a point where men become too vulnerable?

Kevin Thompson [01:25:16]:
Yeah, I think there can be from the standpoint of if there's also not on the other side, a sense of strength. And so there are spaces in which I am offering strength to Jenny, and she can be vulnerable and has space to be vulnerable, and then she offers strength to me, and I have a space to be vulnerable. I think where a man can be too vulnerable is if all he ever is. Is vulnerable and never has this sense of creating a space for his spouse. Because, let's face it, in some places, only one of you can be weak at a time in some circumstances. And so I think if she is always in the position of having to be the rock, the strong one, the protective one, all those things, then I don't think he's fulfilling his role from a masculine standpoint. But for most men, it is this concept of we're not vulnerable enough. But we get to cover a lot of this tomorrow.

Kevin Thompson [01:26:07]:
We're gonna have a great time. Barbara, thank you so much for your time for who you are. Absolutely. Hey, let me close with this. We got three minutes before you have to get your kids. So give me three minutes. If you don't mind, I'll send out an email. Probably not tomorrow, because I'm gonna go cheer on my Razorbacks in San Francisco tomorrow, but be praying.

Kevin Thompson [01:26:26]:
So I'll send out an email in the next couple of days. I want you to take. What's your next next up? Think about the good life, marriage, community. Think about rooted. Think about primetime. Think about married with kids. Think about young, married, if you're dating or engaged. Our premarital class will happen this summer.

Kevin Thompson [01:26:40]:
What is your next step to continue this process? I think for many in this room, a great next step would be you've kind of created a community around the table. Why don't you all get together regularly, meet on Wednesday nights? You can go through the guidebook now. There's videos that we have go through session by session. Barbara's books are available out in the bookstore. Our bookstore isn't open tonight, but this weekend you can buy Barbara's books. It is? Yes, absolutely. It's right out there. You can buy Barbara's books this weekend, and that will be a great opportunity to go from there.

Kevin Thompson [01:27:07]:
And also, as I send you this email, I'll send a survey. If you could respond to that survey. It's extremely beneficial as we try to plan what our next big Wednesday is and in every way that we can build up marriages not only here at Bayside Granite Bay, but across the Sacramento region. What an honor it is to be one of your pastors. Thank you for your faithfulness over these six weeks. Weeks. It's a time period that I'm very grateful for you and for you paying attention and everything that we're doing here to invest in marriages that if we can do anything for you, respond to that email. We'll process that information as best we can and pastor you to the best of our ability.

Kevin Thompson [01:27:42]:
Good night and God bless.

Barbara Wilson [01:27:43]:
Good night.